Is it usual for state secondary schools to have orchestras / instrumental groups ?

[copperbeech]

I'm doing the rounds of secondary schools. I visited the one that is thought locally to be the best option but was distinctly underwhelmed with the music department. Peripatetic teachers do visit the school so there are instrument lessons, but apart from that there are two small choirs and a (very good) jazz band with 10 members. They do put on a musical now and then (more singing). However, there are no other instrumental groups / orchestras etc. This in a school of over 1000 pupils. Is this normal?

I know that most children (dd included) are not highly gifted musicians but very few are completely non-musical and making music is such a fundamental part of life that it seems odd to me that there is not more opportunity at the school.

Just wondered if it was a reasonable thing to expect the school to provide?

I would expect it for a school that size. Most schools here have wind band and/or orchestra, all have choirs. The number of music groups and style does vary from school to school though. One school is more 'school of rock' and into music tech, another more classical, another really into jazz.

It may depend on the enthusiasm of the music teacher and of the senior management of the school. These activities need to be scheduled into the school timetable as pre/lunch time/after school activities.
At DS2's old school there was a great increase in groups when a new and enthusiastic teacher took over the music department. This was despite the fact that it was difficult to set up such groups as most of the pupils in our rural area were bussed in and couldn't arrive early/stay after school.

It is a reasonable thing to expect the school to provide.

I was really put off the school that had no choir, and no really orchestra.

Although music isn't DS1's "thing" I still want the school to provide that sort of thing.

The school I send him to expects all pupils to join the choir or a musical group. He quickly took up the keyboard to avoid singing.

In my area the orchestras etc are provided for the whole area, not usually by individual schools. But if they don't have access to something like that then yes I'd hope a school that size could provide at least some level of instrumental groups.

I've found this myself about secondary schools!
Not because of my own children, but because I need to find new choristers and secondary schools seemed a good place to start.
None in my area have information on their school website about msuic departemnts - two list the teacher in charge/head of music, but nothing else.
There's a lot of information about using the multi-nedia in band and stuff like that- ie doing pop music as part of the curriculum, but nothing about orchestral instruments or music lessons or anything like that.
It's quite worrying.

Just copied this direct form DSs state comp -so they are out there.

There is a wealth of extra-curricular ensembles including three choirs, Orchestra, Wind Band, Lower and Upper College Jazz Band, Flute Group, Guitar club, String ensemble and Junior Strings. These ensembles regularly perform in competitions, music festivals and events organised by the Music Department. The department strongly believes in giving students opportunities to experience live music and many trips to theatres and concert halls are organised during the academic year.

lucky your DS! that sounds like they've really got music as a priority.
:)

Glad I?m not been totally unreasonable then.

I do wonder what the point of them all learning violin / cello etc. at primary school is if they never get the chance to play.

JGBM, I?m jealous. There aren?t any houses for sale near you are there? Maybe we should move!

Some schools around our way do and some don't. A couple club together to run a shared band. To be quite honest though, most aren't all that great and musical children are probably better off joining the county music service groups or other locally run amateur orchestras. The intake of a lot of schools coupled with the lack of provision in the feeder juniors means many just don't have enough musicians to put together a good orchestra, others could but don't bother and only a few manage it well.

All the schools I have worked in have them and they were at both ends of the spectrum. The problem is that they are run by teachers as a voluntary thing. If you don't have a teacher who feels confident to do it or has too many other commitments then it won't happen. They are not paid to do it so they don't have to! Somr music teachers spend basically all their free time doing school music groups as they enjoy it and that is great but others may have small children, be single parents and not have the ability to commit that amount of hours on top of teaching fulltime, marking etc.

I started a thread a while ago about which teachers work the hardest by the way. I mentioned music tesachers for this reason but lots of other teachers thought different.

Absolutely. My DCs are at a state comprehensive and it has stacks: choir, chamber choir, jazz funk band, wind band, strings, flute choir, recorder ensemble, sax group, orchestra, rock band, plus more I've probably forgotten. Oh, just started up a ukelele group!

Christmas and Summer concerts are simply fantastic. Broad repertoire.

Key: enthusiastic, dedicated staff.

Massive music goings on at out local comp, which dd has just left.
Amazing productions as well as numerous musical concerts throughout the yr.
In fact the school has a separate web site just for it's music

DD was heavily involved in music when there .

Yes I would. My kids' state primary of 200 pupils has 2 choirs, an orchestra, string quartet, plus lots of whole school singing, and loads of instrumental lessons.

We've got 2 comps in our town. Ds1 is at one - 1400 pupils. He is now in yr8 and moved into the proper school orchestra (yr7s have their own junior orchestra). There are only about 25 kids there on a good day. He said usually about 20 turn up.

The other comp doesn't even have an orchestra - that school has 900 pupils. Ds2 wants to go to the other school, but is really put off by the lack of orchestra. It is crap.

This is in a fairly well off area, but hardly any children seem to learn an instrument. My theory is that most of the parents are so pushy that they don't want their children to miss a second of any academic lesson just to learn to play an instrument.

The state school my children attend has a full orchestra and also a "big band" they often tour internationally

The state school my ds attended had a fantastic music department..but it was more rock school than orchestra

I'm Head of Performing Arts at the school I teach in. I am a department of 1. I run a Glee Club (that's what they wanted...)weekly, a Pop Icons competition next term (before Christmas) a staff panto on the last day of term for the students to watch, a full scale musical in February, a dance show during the Easter term and a KS3 Performing Arts Festival in the Summer term.

I'm a drama specialist, rather than music, and I simply don't have the time to do anything more - I have a pretty full-on timetable, and am on my own in my department. We have peri instrumental teachers but the take-up is always very poor. We're in a rural area, and most families are short of cash, so extras like instrumental tuition can't always be afforded.

If there are any keen musicians, I tend to point them towards county music services.

I do with I could do more - in an ideal world I'd have a couple of choirs (junior and senior) as well as Glee, some instrumental groups and KS3 and KS4/5 drama clubs. But I just don't have the time - small school, tiny department, huge pressures.

I do wish. Oops.

DS2's ordinary-with-good-bits comp says this:

'Large and successful wind band; Pop Choir; two more senior choirs; a brass ensemble; a guitar group; Jazz group; and we hope to set up a string group/full orchestra. We also support students to form their own rock bands.'

DS1's 'outstanding' comp says this:
'We offer:
Folk group
Jazz/soul band
Saxophone ensemble
Clarinet ensemble
Brass band
Drumming group
String ensemble
Junior and Senior orchestra
Flute choir
Rock band
Junior recorder group
Musical theatre'

Wonderful. They win. Except that DS1 has not the slightest intention of joining any of the above, whereas DS2 seems to have signed up for almost everything at his school!

Oh, and maybe size has something to do with it? DS1's school is huge, over 1600 pupils (so lots of music staff). DS2's is under half the size with apparently one permanently harassed and rumpled music teacher!

My DDs state secondary school has a large music department at her state primary school music seemed important too.

The Secondary school my DD's went to had an orcahstra and a choir.

DD2's comp has a very popular 'Swing Band' that plays at lots of local fetes & charity events, also a junior & senior orchestra, a choir, brass band and various other singing groups. They put on school concerts twice a year. However, I noticed at their last concert thatapart form the Swing band & brass band, >90% of the performers were female, and the choir had to rely on teachers for the male voices.

DS's grammar school (850 pupils) has a jazz band and orchestra and a couple of junior instrumental groups, as well as a senior choir and a number of junior singing groups. They put on annual junior & senior musicals, and two musical evenings which feature performances by the bands & orchestra and also lots of solo performances. The jazz band also plays at the school summer fete.

I agree with previous posts that it all depends on the commitment of the music staff & encouragement by the school management.

The borough also runs a Saturday music centre, which offers four levels of bands/orchestras (from grade 1 upwards) plus two choirs, which gives more scope for performances (and gets DS off the computer for at least part of the weekend)

It does depend on the school. my DS is starting next year and is musical, the first room he wanted to look at in each room was the music room. In the first school, the music teacher was excellent with a boys only choir, guitar group, wind group, musical theatre, all children learn the keyboard as part of music lessons. It was excellent, however the rest of the school was not as good. The good school had music lessons for all who wanted it, a jazz band and a choir with less music overall. The music teacher did not appear to be too interested. Fortunately my DS attends a rock school so gets a really good musical start there but it does cost a lot.