Can I ask a question of any primary/secondary teachers please re talking in class?

[goldenticket]

Class situation where quiet work is expected or teacher is talking. Child A talks to child B. Child B is trying to concentrate and "shushes" Child A. Teacher hears Child B and tells them off/gives them a punishment/puts them on the warning etc.

This situation has arisen a few times recently, both with my children and others that I know of. What is child B better off doing, given that they don't want child A to be talking to them in the first place? Am thinking dobbing child A in wouldn't go down well, especially at secondary level?

Any advice gratefully received!

Not at all. I think,if you've never been a secondary teacher, you can't actually imagine how disruptive it can be. And very often the insolence comes from the kids who feel that they didn't deserve to be told off, despite the fact that they too interrupted the lesson. There is very little difference, in terms of disruption, between me stopping teaching to ask a child who is talking out of turn to stop, and me having to stop teaching to ask a child who is making loud "SHHHHHHHHHHHH" noises to stop. Either way, the lesson has to come to a halt, and the ones who suffer are the children who don't feel the need to make unnecessary noises of any kind.

And actually, it's the "my child wasn't in the wrong" type parents who piss me off the most. At least the kid who was talking in the first place is more likely to admit he shouldn't have been doing it. The "but I was just telling him to stop it" kids are far more irritating. Let the teacher do the job - you are not in the classroom to correct the behaviour of your fellow students - that's my job.

What EvilTwins said.

I am with EvilTwins. In fact we cover it as part of our learning skills stuff with our tutor groups and in PSHE. I had a class with lots of "be QUIET"s in it today, followed by giggling, and they were more disruptive than the original comment.

Am also with Evil Twins: the 'shushers' in my classes though are generally the naughty boys who think they look good by shushing - they are so wrong!

Generally, I spot talkers fairly quickly though and separate if needsbe, thus avoiding the 'shush brigade' piping up!

Onceamai - I think you're being v harsh there and not really understanding ET's point.

Ah well, you're just much better at it than me

We just have a very strict detention policy - so most of them know to shut up!

From my brief experience of school teaching, I can sort of see EvilTwins' pov: ime the most disruptive pupils were the good-as-gold little girls who spent all their time trying to keep the class in order because Miss couldn't possibly do that on her own. They would look most aggrieved when informed that their services were not required.

I am also with eviltwins. I may be ignoring an attention seeking child deliberately as to stop and give them attention disrupts everyone's lesson more. I will then deal with the issue later when it doesn't stop the learning for the other 29 members of the class. The sshhers and "miss he's talking etc" disrupt the lesson even more. I then have to stop. Someone else then starts talking and it takes ages to get them all focused again. We loose the trail and have to recap and a 5 minute explanation takes 3 x as long.

What Evil twins said.

Some years ago I taught a KS2 class who were very chatty and noisy. I would ask for quiet, and wait...and just when 95% of the children were silent, one child (always the same one!) would pipe up 'Mrs Woahwoah is waiting for quiet!', which set all the others off again, groaning and shushing him! He was far more disruptive than the chatters!

I tried all sorts of solutions (a quiet word with him outside class, speaking directly to him when asking for quiet, indicating to him with fingers on lips, telling him off...)but he still somehow saw it as his right to comment on the behaviour of others, and thought I should be grateful!

So I would probably tell both children off in this situation, and if one came to me afterwards wanting to be moved, I would do that.

My main concern as a teacher is to be able to teach the whole class - a disruption is a disruption, regardless of the motivation.

Oh, and don't necessarily think your child is giving you the full, unbiased story...

My children have never ever initiated a conversation in class, but they are always being told off for talking. Very odd that........{grin]

even!

with eviltwins on this. And seeker makes a very valid point.

Love your post, Seeker!

EvilTwins, do you not give the shusher any credit for being frustrated that they can't hear what you're trying to teach, with someone yattering in their ear, and that their reason for making a noise is so that they and others can learn, not because they can't be bothered to? the different intention in why they're making anoise is relevant isn't it? I'm surprised so many people agree with you.

So the talker disrupts the shusher, the shusher disrupts you and you tell the shusher off, disrupting the whole class from the lesson by having a go. Sounds like double standards and lack of desire to deal with the source of the problem.

reality - have you read the last dozen or so posts?

Great post reality. There are more points of view than yours Evil Twins but goodness me fancy disagreeing with a teacher!

The teacher's priority has to be the majority of students, and teaching a fluent, pacey, coherent lesson. ANY interruption to this has the same effect of disrupting the lesson. Teachers will often be aware of one or two students talking, but it might be quiet and not preventing the majority of the class from being able to hear and learn. The shooshers are different as they usually manage to instantly derail the lesson by distracting the majority of students. It's 'tactical ignoring' of quiet chat that might be frustrating for the
one or two students sat close to the culprit, but at least the teacher and majority of students are able to continue the lesson. I know if I stopped teaching to punish every single minor, quiet chat, we'd never get anything done. A confident teacher can do this. If you watch an inexperienced teacher, they will expect total silence, not get it, try to teach and have to keep stopping every time a tiny convo between a couple of students starts. You pick your battles IYSWIM and most students understand this. I have a couple of disruptive boys in a class I teach and their behaviour is attention-seeking, so as far as is reasonable I ignore it and it works because the lesson continues and they are forced to catch up. There are shooshers in the class but I tell them to be quiet, that I am important and the boys are not

Obviously there are more points of view than mine, but my point of view seems to be shared by many teachers - the people who are actually being attacked here! I don't honestly think that those of you who don't teach are in a strong position to tell those of us who do how we should be doing our jobs.

If your DC is in a class which was disrupted, for whatever reason, you would, presumably, be pretty pissed off that the education of your DC was interrupted. Would you say "ah but it's OK that your lesson was being interrupted, as the children who were disrupting it were asking other children to be quiet"? or would you be annoyed that your own child couldn't learn what they're supposed to be learning?

Hmmmm. Thought so.

I agree with you Evil Twins, and I'm teaching Y2!
The shushers are always the children high in the class hierarchy who believe (because of their perceived high status) that the rest of the class will listen to them instead of me. I find this very annoying.

I think we've learnt this lesson, now October's here!!! (Doubt if it's so easy in secondary!)

Agree also with the anti-shushers, it is very distracting and off-putting for the rest of the class and often escalates as the pupil who was talking initially responds to being shushed and an argument then breaks out.....

In terms of asking to be moved this doesn't necessarily impose the problem on another child as often the desk will be left empty if possible...if not at least the teacher is then aware of potential problems and can keep a closer eye on pupils if required.

As for telling the teacher - I am often surprised at how well this goes down with other people in the class, particularly if they are fed up with being disturbed. My pupils are aware of what they should do when disturbed and if they chose to take matters into their own hands rather than following class/school policy then they will be treated accordingly (which sounds much more officious than it is supposed to but hopefully you get the idea!)

My goodness montblanche, you have Yr2 kids marked down as perceiving themselves to be higher up in the hierarchy than you, and find them annoying because at the mature old age of 7 and 8 they voice their frustration when their concentration is disrupted by chatterers that you haven't dealt with. And you get very annoyed, you say.

Poor kids.

I didn't say higher up the hierarchy than me reality!!

I said that there is a class hierarchy - certain children are 'admired' more than others - there is a natural pecking order.

These (generally) confident children sometimes decide to tell the other children what to do because they perceive that they are more important than them.

I have to make it clear that I am the boss of the classroom, not them: whatever happens in the playground.

Yes, I understand that, and you're right Montblanche - they do have to follow the teacher's lead or it would be mayhem. But I've seen a lot of what the OP describes - kids instigating trouble getting away with it and the retaliators getting it in the neck. My kids are not angels and one in particular has always been the talker not the shusher, but my sympathy still lies with the kid who wants to learn, not the one who can't be bothered.

Often the shushers are those who want to ingratiate themselves with the teacher! The children who want to learn are the majority - neither talkers or shushers. They are the children who listen and respect the teacher.