Moving the kids to school in Paris to learn French

[Dvushka]

(Posting here b/c I'm not sure if this question is for this topic or specialised primary educ.)

I have 2 dds, one in Reception and the other in Year 2. We've always been big on having them learn languages - afterschool clubs in French and Chinese once a week - but we realise that they will never truly become fluent unless we immerse them.
So we're planning to go to Paris for at least 7 months if not the next year as well (we'll see how it goes). I've already found a place for Y2 dd at EAB Monceau in the immersion programme - they'll take her in January. My 4yr old would have to go to a local maternalle (if one is available). Has anyone done this before and/or have any knowledge of EAB or other schools in the 8th or 17th arr.? Do you think they will speak fluently after a year and a half and then keep it up after they move back to London? (They would at least have an afterschool French speaking nanny once or twice a week if not go to the Lycee.) It's a sacrifice for us but I just think it's less disruptive to move over now before the demands of KS2 really kick in and we start preparing for the move to secondary school.

Not being bi-/tri-lingual as a child does NOT mean they will never be bilingual.

Look at the number of mumsnetters who were born and bred in the UK and have moved abroad to another country where they speak the local language fluently.

As other posters have said - you need to use a language regularly. I was in the UK until I was 20 then moved abroad. I now barely speak English (max. 3h a week) and my English has really suffered - I forget words and my sentence construction makes my parents laugh. Despite being brought up in a 100% English-speaking household.

Check out the posts in the Bilingual section. It is very hard to bring up a child to be bilingual - and that is when you have two parents of different mother tongues only speaking their mother tongue to the child.

Litchick - I live abroad you know - and have a french speaking child I still think in this particular scenario, it is a stupid idea....

I actually meet a few families with ideas like that of the OP at EaB - "let's spend a few months in France and our children will be bilingual."

It really isn't that easy. And, when you leave France, your children will forget French astonishingly fast.

Litchick - "Folk in the UK are very resistent of doing anything different ( as you can see )."

I'm not in the UK either - this is my 4th country in 13 years.

then you know how great it can be for families - so why the doom and gloom?

Okay the kid might not become bi-lingual, but the family might gain so much more.

i spoke fluent spanish when i was a preschooler

Why put your elder child into EAB and your younger not? Why not put them both into local maternelle where none of the children are anglophone?

For that matter, why Paris where there are tons of English speakers if you want full immersion?

If it were a long term move (3+ years) or even a shorter move for work I'd say it was a great idea but to go to that trouble and also risk losing their existing school places as you know you're coming back just isn't sensible.

Add to that your children won't really remember the experience, being so young, and won't really be able to capitalise on it just yet. It would be different if they were about 5 years older but that presents other challenges.

I also agree with the warnings that if they dint have a lot of support when they come back they'll lose it. I was schooled totally in Welsh for 2 years and we also lived in Italy for a bit. Both of those languages are now pretty much lost and not because of any laziness on my parents' part. Children pick languages up seemingly quickly but they lose them just as fast.

oh but of course i still do looks at name

This scheme is so not going to work. Kids are the ultimate pragmatists when it comes to language. They'll learn French if their school environment is French only, but forget it again pretty quickly once they don't need it in the UK. Unless you then subsequently send them to a French school in the UK to keep up their standard.

And there is a difference between being bilingual and being fluent (not wishing to open up that can of worms though - been done to death in another thread). I'm very fluent in German, but I'm not bilingual because I only started learning as an adult. My children are bilingual because they've learned both since birth, but it's been tough keeping them balanced. It's worked because they are personally motivated to speak both languages.

I'm not saying don't go to France, if that's what you want to do. There are plenty of people who go abroad for work purposes for a short time and their kids cope fine linguistically, to a greater or lesser extent (DDs has a girl in her class now who is only in Germany for 3 months, while her mum does a training programme). But please don't go abroad SOLELY with the intention of improving their language skills. You will end up disappointed when it doesn't work and perhaps transmit that to your children, who could somehow feel they have failed you.

I find it dishearting that mumsnet posters can be so aggressive with their comments when someone asks for advice.

In answer to some responses, yes we are aware of how difficult it is to keep languages up. In fact I speak Russian and Chinese and have had the fortune to live in both Moscow and Beijing for a number of years. I studied these languages at university and it has opened doors for me. But it was an incredible amount of effort to learn both languages after the age of 18. I want to try to give my children the gift of speaking another foreign language without an accent while they are still able to.

French is easiest. Also, it's supported in UK schools, more or less, plus we hope that it may help them to learn another romance lang in future should they wish. TBH, we would have to spend a 1.5-2yrs min. I realise for them to really acquire it and get a feel for the culture. We did have a couple of years of uni French and I plan to take an intensive course prior to going over as well as when I'm there. On our return, they could either go to the Lycee, have a nanny on weekends or enroll in a Saturday French school. We'd try to visit France more often as well. (as for summer programmes in France - all of them are over by the time UK schools get out at the end of July or they only cater to 12+yr olds)

Why we don't teach them Russian or Chinese you might ask? Well, it's not my native language. My DH does speak only in Russian to them however and they did go to Saturday Russian school and both have been to Russian nursery here in the UK. They understand it but answer back in English....Moscow is too difficult due to visa issues and China is just not where the jobs are for us. I haven't used my Chinese as much as I would like recently but when I do have the chance to practice it does come back so I know that all that studying wasnt for nought - I make the effort to keep up my languages.

Aupairs and nannies don't work. We've tried it. If the kids are not completely immersed in the language to at least get a base, they only pick up a couple of words or phrases. I hope that moving to France will be the least painful way for them to learn and easiest since they are so young. They're still young enough that they would mostly just play in French. I think this age would be the least disruptive, my dds would be 6.5 and 9 on our return.

We've thought a lot about this and our options. Thank you for your responses. It's been interesting.

I don't think people are being very aggressive, they just don't think it's likely to work. And you did ask...

So, they speak English, Russian, plus French and Chinese. At 4? Cripes.

I also have a modern langs degree so I really do appreciate what you're saying about the gift of bilinguality/fluency. But I just suspect that this is not what you'll achieve.

Have you or your DH got jobs ot go to out there?

The problem is they don't speak anything other than English here. Afterschool French class and Chinese class once a week amount to learning to count to 10 and the names of the colors, days of the week etc., not speaking a language by any stretch. It kills me that we're in Europe but they only learn English.

Unfortunately there does seem to be a fair amount of aggressive name calling in this forum...dissapointing really.

Oh, if only there was more language taught in primary schools, really.

Anyhoo, don't take it to heart dvushka. It's a robust forum, but it's great fun too. I like it that people generally speak their minds. I'm sure you can give as good as you get.

I think you'll find that people are direct and tell it like they see it on Mumsnet, Dvushka.

You asked for views, and you've been given plenty of different ones, some of which are very supportive of you and your aims.

The name calling has been minor and, I think, in jest. (That's why people use ! in their posts).

Perhaps the different perspectives may help you to see the possible flaws in your plans?

And welcome to Mumsnet! Jump in a post elsewhere and you'll see what we're really like. Nest of vipers one thread and funny, smart and incredibly supportive on the next.

Dvushka, can I ask what your, and your DH's native languages are? (Sorry if I missed that somewhere in the thread)

So, your main aim is for your DC to learn French. Right. I have seen children of 4/5/6/7 move to Paris, and it's taken them at least a year to settle into school and feel confident amongst their piers. I've also seen Polish children come to England and would say it also takes them a year to settle a converse happily with other English children)

However, after a year they still don't have the full vocab a native child would have, and this can, at times be unsettling for them.

Can I also ask why Paris? It it partly because you want to live there (I can totally understand that!) Personally I would be keener to move to deep dark France, if it's solely for language reasons, as there will be far fewer English Speakers.I suspect you may end up socialising with the other parents at EAB in English, as will your DC.

I don't think anyone is name calling going on here, I just think people think you are are slightly misguided as to how much immersion a child needs to become fluent.

At the end of the day, from what I have witnessed, it is the language which is spoken at home in which children are the most articulate/comfortable.Of course that can easily be two languages, with the language of the country in which they live being the third.

I have a friend who did this but she is French so she speaks to her dcs in French at home (but to her dh in English). They went for 2 terms (Christmas-Aug). They stayed with their family in a rural area where nobody else spoke English. They are good, but not really fluent (according to their mother, they sound great to me).

TBH as its a sacrifice for you, rather than a necessary move, and as it will be disruptive, I think you will lose more than you gain. They are too young to maintain any level of fluency. My DH came to UK at age 13 with no english at all and now, 16 years later he doesn't speak his native language, even to his parents. Like another posters DH, he responds to his parents questions in english and speaks to his sister (moved here at 11) in english. My french friend moved here in her early 20s and is now 46. She says there are lots of things that she struggles with when she visits as the language has evolved without her and she doesn't have the language for things she didn't experience when she lived there.

Dvushka - I really admire your determination to give your dc the opportunity to become multi-lingual - and despite what others say on here - the earlier they start the better. Studies consistently show that dc who start learning a second language at nursery learn faster and more easily than dc who start around 8 or 10 yrs.

As has been mentioned, I think the problematic bit of the plan is the fact that you will have to return to the UK after a year which could be incredibly disruptive, particularly if the curriculum is very different.

If, as you suggest, they go to the Lycee when they return (which is probabably your best bet) why not just start them in the Lycee straightaway (they have both maternelle and primaire sections)? However, it is bound to be complicated having dc who are brought up in the UK but following a French curriculum (not sure to what extent the Lycee provides a bi-lingual education). Would that be a problem for you or them do you think? I wonder what proportion of children who attend the Lycee are NOT French nationals? It would be worth finding out ...

Perhaps [[
www.franceinlondon.com/en-Article-570-Some-of-the-best-bilingual-schools-and-nurseries-in-London-Children--london-Mars-Montessori.html this article]] about bilingual schools may be of interest???

If all else fails, move to Brussels permanently - slightly extreme solution I know !!! - but totally NORMAL here for dc to be brought up learning two or three languages from 2.5 yrs.

(Sorry - forgot to mention - for sake of clarity - am assuming you are referring to French Lycee in London, South Ken)

Hi Dvushka

I cant talk about schools in Paris but we did move abroad when DCs were small and put them into the local school where they had to learn the local language. For each DC it took six months to become fluent. These are not easy months. For the first five months we doubted our decision. It was only when each DC in turn found that their language had reached a critical mass that we could relax.

We were abroad for 5 years during which time DD1 did practically all her primary education in the local language. We moved back in time for DD1 to go into secondary school here in the UK. In the first year she got an A in GCSE in her second language. This year she took the AS and got a B. Next year she plans to take the A level.

This has worked for DD1, she has retained the language as she did a lot of years not months. This has also helped her other languages so she is also doing well at French & German.

On the other hand DCs 2 & 3 were much younger and only did a couple of years at school in the other language. Someone described them as being at the 'sponge age'. They soaked the language up at the time but one squeeze and it was all gone. We shall have to see if the early experience helps with their language learning at secondary school.

So all in all while I think your plan is honourable the timespan is too short and DCs will forget the language very quickly in my experience.

Agree with others that if you don't use it you lose it - but having had some sort of previous experience speaking or hearing a language - even if it's just an awareness of other languages being out there - can be immensely helpful later on AND means you can pick it up again more easily later on.

We did hear the suggestion that if you learn your first 'second' language by the time you are about 6 that the lingusitics 'switch' in the brain gets left on. We dont know if that is true yet for all 3 DCs as we didnt do a double blind trial!

Certainly by the time we moved back all three DCs were fully bilingual which was an interesting experience for us as parents as we struggled to learn the language.

Dvushka
You say your DC understand Russian but speak back in english. in that single sentence, you have hit the nail on the head. Becoming bilingual / fluent is - contrary to popular myth - actually quite hard.

I live in France and speak English to my DC all the time. Never say a word of French to them. I am also a SAHM with strong links back in the UK (grandparents, cousins etc). The DC are in normal, non bilingual schools.

Good news is: they speak English brilliantly. But they have in fact been much slower to pick up French! The language of not only their father (who speaks exclusively French to them) but also the language of the environment.

I am not worried about my own DC as we are here for the long haul and I feel confident that full time school in french, French friends etc will sort out the French. But, all that to say, bilingualism doesn't "just happen".

It can happen and it does happen in lots of cases. But it normally takes hard work from the parents.

And in so many cases - we have loads of bicultural couple friends - the kids speak perfect French and understand English but never get to speak English really brilliantly. Our DC have swum against the stream in this respect.

I am amazed that you think 7 months or even a year would be sufficient to get your DC to be lifelong bilinguals.

Stillcounting, I would NOT agree that in Brussels it is normal to have 3 languages at that age, UNLESS the parents speak them too. You might get families where one parent speaks say English, one Dutch. Yes, you could do OPOL at home and then send them to a french speaking school at 2.5. I know lots of people but don't know anyone that does this.

But that is NOT the situation we are discussing here. And you are expected to oversee homework and read to/with them in French too - that is NOT easy if you are not fluent.

And as we speak English at home, I am already aware that this can have an effect on grasp of vocabulary. School words/life - no trouble for dd in French. General stuff, more difficult. Think of a word like say "traffic lights" or "baking" - might not come up at all at school. DD knows the ENGLISH word, but if you asked her the french one....

Even after 4 years, she is still not exposed to the language at the same level as her peers. I actively encourage tv watching!

Unfortunately it's next to impossible (acc. to admissions) to get into the Lycee in South Ken or Fulham if you're either not a French national or coming directly from a French school. I believe they do follow the UK curriculum in their bilingual Fulham school. We could go to one of the private bilingual schools but it's quite pricey for 2dds and I think it'd be more interesting to go live in Paris for us all. We're not too concerned about getting back into a good school in the UK as we live practically on top of a very good local and there are the lycee options.

Greythorne our experience was that bilingualism did 'just happen' (after 6 months of worry). Our DCs attended the local primary school but we spoke to them exclusively in English and they spoke back to us in English. At school they spoke the local language. In English DCs were English, in the local language they were local.

Only DD1 has retained the other language. I have asked her a number of times which language she dreams in and she has said it depends entirely on context and often doesnt really know.

The one thing DD1 struggles with is translation but I have discussed this with other bilingualists I know and they have said the same.