Teachers - how much does taking a career break blow a hole in your career?

[fuschiagroan]

I don't have any children yet - hoping to in a few years. I have no idea how I will feel when they arrive regarding going back to work/choosing childcare, but since I recently had a massive tearfest about leaving my cat in a cattery to go on holiday [irrational madwoman emoticon], I am anticipating that I may want to take some time out when they are tiny.

So what I want to know is, how much does a career break disadvantage you? Is it really hard to get back in or go part time?

TFM: "In teaching, you don't ask for salary. There is a payscale according to experience and performance. My school couldn't pay me the salary of an NQT even if I asked for it."

Is that the case even where the experience is many years out-of-date or in a different field to the job she is applying for? Seems pretty inflexible to me and limits choices (sorry, not teacher so probably asking stupid questions).

yes it is - it's a national pay scale - experience is experience, you don't go backwards on a payscale if you've had a few years out of the profession

I am on the start of the 5th year of my career break - moved abroad to accompany dh who is HM Forces. We will be here (unless he's made redundant) until 2013, and I will hopefully have done an MA by the time we're back; run a large Youth club for years 7-9 at ds's school, and taught ds his GCSE RE. I also examine for one of the big boards and have just done my first year team leading for them. I have examined in total now for 7 years, so a up to date with the KS4 requirements anyway.

However, the International school where ds goes does not teach my subject, and supply is rare. I presume that with 7 years out it will be difficult to get back in. I was about to go onto M6 when I left.

I do interview, although have not in my subject area yet where I would be more likely to have the last say.

Some of it may have been lack of jargon, sometimes they are too expensive for what they offer, the few I can think of just did not seem to offer anything special that grabbed us. Often they have just done nothing linked to their career while they were off and they come across as rather stale. I know from my own experience in the past that as an experienced candidate I had to be twice as good as the keen newbies.

Since 2007 there has been a bit of a baby boom. Those extra kids will be hitting senior school in 2017. It's 2010 now. Say you marry in 2012, have your first child in 2014 and the second in 2016 (sorry if you were planning on a more leisurely pace ), there should be a high demand for senior school teachers in 2017 onwards.

So it might be perfect timing.

Thanks, Ramon, Durga.

Is this too expensive for what they are offering is a consequence of the national pay scale? eg no current experience or subject area expertise, but require to be paid the same as another candidate which has.

If so, I think it is a shame that a returning teacher cannot ask for NVQ salary just to get back on the re-training track. Do you think flexibility on national pay scales would help returning teachers? What is the rationale for the rigidity?

Why should a returning teacher have to ask for an NQT salary on returning? I had been teaching for 5 years before my first child and if I had chosen to take a career break it should not wipe out those 5 years of experience. As it was I returned to work when DD was 4 months old, but on 2 days a week so obviously I had a pay cut but I was still being paid as per my experience. It is important to keep up-to-date with current practices in teaching and therefore remain employable, but surely any returning teacher would want to do that anyway?

jetgirl, my intention is not to make it compulsory for a returning teacher to take a pay cut but to give the option to that teacher to ask for it.

You don't feel you need to because you have kept your skills up-to-date. But a returning teacher who took a long break and who did not keep her hand in who is having difficulty finding a job (as durga describes) should be allowed to drop their salary requirements, just for the chance to re-train.

I am trying to understand the rationale for not giving returning teachers that choice.

Because if the national pay scale wasn't there some schools would advertise most jobs at NQT rate and experienced teachers in popular subjects would be stuck at that for the forseeable. My DH thinks along similar lines to you I think - mostly wrt filling positions in shortage subjects, but I think a Maths teacher and an English teacher with the same experience teaching the same children with wildly disparate pay packets would not lead to a harmonious staffroom.

If you are in Scotland it may be different. We have had an overflow of NQT's the last few years, coupled with the councils funding issues meaning most jobs are being filled with permanent supply posts rather than being advertised. Lots of schools are paring down staff by not filling posts emptied due to retirement on promotion.

However, some councils have extended leave policies. I know of 2 teachers near me who took unpaid extended leave once their maternity had ran out. There job is kept open for them for 2 years. That could be a possibility.

This is not meant to counter the points of view already expressed, but I am a teacher who has pretty much had a five year career break and I'm not too worried if it has harmed my career. I don't separate out the different parts of my life in quite such a defined way, I have done a very different job for five years and hau. Have loved it and wouldn't change. So you might end up feeling like that. FWIW I know several teachers who are further down the career ladder than they would have been and are not in the least concerned. I also know several who have balanced career with children when they were small and have not found that it has damaged their progression at all. So I guess it's all a bit individual and if you feel you might be someone who wants to look after your children full time, you might also be someone who either works hard to regain position on career ladder, or might find that that ladder isn't as important to you. It is almost impossible to know how you will be until you have had children or to know what your finances will be.

I went part-time after two dds. Then jacked it in altogether for about 18mo. Was asked for an interview for 1st job I applied for, which was at the same level (Head of Year) as I had finished before dd1 was born. Turned the interview down (think I'd have had a good chance), subsequently got the 1st job I applied for teaching p/t in a different school. So no effect for me, really.

Oh, and went throught threshold 2 within 6mo of returning. So pay as it should be (pro rata)

TFM, I appreciate the concerns for pay parity and stop schools taking the piss. However, the adage that you get what you pay for also holds - if you advertise at NVQ salary, you won't get the desirable experienced teachers (except in an employers market and that won't last forever)

On the point you raised about "I think a Maths teacher and an English teacher with the same experience teaching the same children with wildly disparate pay packets would not lead to a harmonious staffroom."

"Experience" is not true experience if it is out-of-date or not relevant. This is not novel or controversial. The whole private sector works on this premise. So I could have a much older colleague with more experience working at my same level who accepted the job at that salary because they took a long career break or are re-tooling into a different area. Everyone is fine, no disharmony. I have taken varying seniority/salary penalty many times in my career before because I wanted to get into an area of work and did not have relevant experience.

I am surprised at the national pay scales working in this way. I think it holds women back who are willing to/need to compromise on salary/seniority to get back on the ladder.

As always, I am referring to the choice being given to women, not suggesting for a minute it should be compulsory for returning teachers to take a pay cut.

I can completely see the arguments, but I also know how things work in schools. Schools do appoint NQTs in preference to experience as durga has said. When money is as tight as it is, it is a considerable saving. I agree with you about experience too. But my concern isn't about that. If the national pay scales go, shortage subjects will be paid more than subjects where supply exceeds demand. Which is market forces and all well and good. But when you know that your colleague is paying paid twice as much as you for teaching the same bottom set year 9s, when you might well be the better, more successful teacher, well - teachers fall out over mugs and not sitting in chair nearest the phone. That would really give them something to gripe about.

TFM, but if shortage teachers are paid more than popular subject teachers, that would go towards addressing the shortage.

I appreciate that requires a shift in mindset though. I am afraid you are not painting an attractive picture of teachers if they would fall out over mugs and telephone seating

It wasn't meant to be attractive!! That is something I didn't miss in my 5 year break. We are an odd lot really. I blame bottom set year 9 personally

Re-train for primary before having kids? Science spaciality would be in demand. I am a primary HT with 3 DCs (no time out of job though. I employ a wide variety of people depending on best fit don't mind if they have been PT or out for a while, if their ethos fits mine and are hard working and OK about catching up fast then I give them a job. I have got some really good staff that way.

"But she is unimpressed with part timers."

I find this really odd to understand. My DD has two teachers this year, doing a job share - one teaches on Monday and Tuesday, and the other on Thursday and Friday. The two teachers have been in job shares for years and have a fabulous reputation within the school and with the parents - they are 100% focused on their jobs with masses of energy and, critically IMO, are not involved in the power politics of school leadership. What's not to like?

In my last headship I only had two FT teachers - all the rest were job sharers. it worked really well.

I know when I was given my last standard post I was interviewed with all NQTs. Apparantly the Head of Department had fought to get me an interview as the head and head of faculty only wanted cheap NQTs. My application was head and shoulders above everyone else. I know, from talking to the head of department afterwards that even though I interviewed better than anyone else, had better academic qualifications than anyone else and taught a better lesson than anyone else I almost did not get the job for two reasons. I was too expensive and off the record I was a woman who had taken 5 years out and I may do it again. They wanted to employ a male NQT.

The only school I have ever worked in which liked part timers was a school that had run out of money and they like us going part time as it meant making less people redundant which saved further money.

blueshoes I appreciate the point you are making and as I have never worked in private sector I can't really judge how differently pay scales work. If you have taught for 5 years then tke a break, you still have 5 years experience that an NQT doesn't and it strikes me as unfair that a teacher would feel that they have to request a pay cut in order to compete for a job. Ironically, I suppose I have sort of done that: I am the only teacher of my subject but am not a HoD, another colleague is HoD - she also is the only teacher of that subject as of this year but still gets her TLR.
In my school we were all given identical thermal mugs - no disputes there

I have actually never given a monkey's arse abotu what other teachers have been paid. The only time it enters my head is when I see as teacher who is frankly incompetant and I think what a waste of public funds. So I don't think it would be a problem for that reason. But I don't think teachers should be forced into a paycut. I also do not care about mugs.

Too many part timers bugger up a secondary school timetable. Primary is quite different.