Why don't ALL children have compulsory sign language workshops at school?

[swiperfox]

Please don't let this turn into a horrid thread - it's just something me and dp were talking about the other day after reading the threads about Something Special.

I personally think it would be a fantastic thing for children to learn. My Mum's cousin is profoundly deaf due to her mum having chickenpox when she was pg so I grew up knowing the alphabet and have never forgotten it and it's amazing how useful it has been to me ever since.

It's so easy to learn the basics, especially at a young age and would encourage children to learn about and accept children with special/other needs and would probably make the world a nicer place for those who need to use sign language, knowing that they aren't going to be confronted with people looking at them like they're stupid because they can't understand them.

It would be great, I had a go at learning BSL. Wish we had done it a school though instead of Germam or French. They could all teach their baby sisters and brothers baby signing too.

my dd is desperate to learn it - she wouldhave to go to an adult class

Just seen this & think it's a great idea!. My old comp had a deaf unit so many deaf children integrated & we ALL learned to finger spell. However, the deaf children came to our school to learn to speak & lip read etc. The teachers wore radio mikes so the kids didn't have to sit at the front unless lipreading. We all learned tolerance of speech differences but I WISH we had learnes sign language as well.

Anyone have an opinion on whether BSL will still be around in 50 years? Most profoundly deaf children, in my clinical experience, are now offered a cochlear implant. Most parents of deaf children are hearing. Therefore, they choose an implant because they prefer their child to speak than sign.

The child then goes to mainstream school and generally makes good progress with spoken language. I have learnt BSL as part of my job but am yet to have a child who uses it on my caseload. To some extent, it depends on the LEA, but in all four of the areas I'm familiar with, there is no seperate provision for deaf children - they all go to mainstream school. My own BSL skills get rustier by the year.

Where will BSL be in 50 years time?

I hope it won't have gone - the deaf community is a strong one. There is a school for the deaf near ius (well 40 miles away). If I had a profoundly deaf child I would want them to go there I think- but that's just because I think specialist education is 100 thousand times better than "inclusion" in most cases (unelss dissablity/SN is at the mild/possibly moderate end and the child will be expected to grow up and live 100% in m/s life).

There is still problmes with cochlear implants and those who ARE born to to Deaf parnets will not all have implants , I know a lot of Deaf adults who are very anti-cochlear implants.
We know a little girl who has an implant and at swmming lessons she signs as the implant has to be taken off.
Are you a TOD Mogwai?

She's a SALT nikkie- and I have heard that cochlear impants are still quite controversial. There used to be a Sunday morning TV show for/by the deaf community. I remember there was a programme about cochlear implants - it was very anti. It was interesting viewing (the whole series was). Made me think about things differently (this was in the days before children)

My friend's dd has had implants. She wrote an article about how it affected her and her dd - i'll see if i can find it.....

interesting- I'd like to see it swiperfox. I have no idea which I'd choose if I had to make that decision for a child of mine btw. I can really see both sides. The Sunday morning programme got me really interested in the deaf community though- it has such a strong identity.

typical I can't find it now and i'm sure i saw it on a file the other day - I'll def get it from her again and post it - it's an amazing article.

have you mentioned her on here before? Someone has talked about cochlear implants before. I know when I first saw the programme I was surprised that people woud choose not to have the operation. Now I'm less sure- how well do you hear with them? Is it approaching normal?

I think i mentioned it to someone once before on here a while ago. Her DD is doing really really well with them. I think she's abotu 6 years old. In her article she tells all about the look on her face the first time she heard the doorbell go or the phone ring. So sweet. Her Mum is profoundly deaf as well.

Oh that is interesting. I think we talked about it before. My concern with implants (knowing next to nothing about how much hearing you get with them) is that you would end up not quite hearing and not quite deaf. Presumably if her mum is profoundly deaf she'll know sign anyway -I suppose that would be my ideal- implant + fluent in sign- giving the choice - but not sure how often that happens if everyone else in the household is hearing, and presumably doesn't hapen if the child then went to mainstream school. (I'm not really a fan of inclusion for any significant disability though so that could be my own prejudices putting me off).

did you see the failry recent programme about the deaf couple who had a child and they were hoping he was deaf (he was). it was very interesting and moving- and of course thought provoking.

I think she does know some sign but they generally use a bit of sign and lipreading - which is why I grew up only learning the alphabet - everything else was lipread. Her husband and their son are both hearing. She wrote in her article what the difference is in her hearing with the implants in whatever units they measure it in (sorry i'm useless today - got a brain like a seive!) and I remember it was quite a significant jump.
I did see thast programme and was really unsure about how I felt about it. I could see it from the parents point of view but at the same yime, knowing what it's like to be profoundly deaf, how could you wish that for your child? But I think that because my cousin is profoundly deaf and I have no hearing on one side which can be frustrating enough!!

Jimjams my sister has cochlear implant. She has had it for a couple of years now and loves it - although it has had a few faults which have been annoying for her and she misses it when she hasnt got it.
She is not totally deaf but it's not easy to get her attention if she doesn't have any aids and she doesn't always hear the phone in her flat if not wearing any aids.She lip reads and knows quite a lot of makaton signing but her speech is very good, not always that clear to people who don't know her, but she loves her implant as it cuts out all the interference that she used to get with her old aids.

I wonder whether the difference is that the couple in the programme were fluent in BSL- so it was their first language- and the deaf community was their community, so the hearing community was less relevant. They weren't disabled at all in their community. Whereas if you are living in the hearing community then being deaf is a disability and so having an aid rediced that difference and helps.

My friend is deaf and went to deaf school atSouthport(now closed) and thi s was a non-signing school , tranferred to Newcastle at 13 and had to learn to sign, very hard for her to intergrate into either community at first.
BTW she is married(to deaf amn) with 5 deaf children and 1 hearing.

Have finally found the article about my friends dd's implants.....

We are the deaf parent of our born profoundly deaf daughter, Olivia who is now nearly 4. When she was 5 months old, she start wearing the hearing aid. Unfortunately she cannot hear with the hearing aid. At the audio logy clinic they found out that Olivia got no benefit from the hearing aid. She had a hearing loss of 160 dB. We were very upset and our family helped us and audio logy told us about the cochlear implant. We were against it because we had no information etc. We heard bad things from deaf culture. The audiologists doctors told us to go home and think about it and give us lots of information and arranged a meeting with the parent who have deaf child with the cochlear implant. After 14 months we decided to give our daughter the opportunity to benefit from the cochlear implant.

It was very hard decision for us to decide whether to give her an opportunity! We were very upset and emotional when she went to the theatre. We nearly take her out but we knew it would be better for her And the family helped us which was best for our daughter Olivia. We decided to give her the best opportunity for the future to hear sounds. But it was very hard, difficult decision for us.

A cochlear implant is a device that contains electrodes that are implanted inside the cochlea in the inner ear which stimulates the nerves in the ear to hear. This is only activated when the external processor is worn. Without this part of the hearing aid, Olivia is still a profoundly deaf little girl.

Olivia underwent surgery when she was two and half at Crosshouse Hospital in Kilmarnock in May 2002. Afterwards she worked with audiologists to learn how to identify and recognise sounds.

Olivia has had her implant since May 2002. She is now learning to discriminate the sounds. About 6 months after, she was eating her dinner when there was loud banging outside (fireworks). She told me that loud from outside. Then a while ago bell rang, the look on her face when she looked up at me was the most beautiful excited face I have ever seen! She heard the bell! She was excited and wanted to know what it was and wanted to hear it again. She still gets excited every time the bell rings and tells us what it is. Every new sound to her is precious; we know that because it is so wonderfully obvious. She was delighted when she heard the phone rang, microwave, water running, toilet flushing, all of these to her are exciting. How can anyone with any decency condemn me for giving her this experience? We want to give her the chance to have some hearing but she is still deaf child.

About deaf culture: Why can?t our daughter be accepted for who she is no matter how she communicates or who she communicates with? Will the deaf community close her out unless she agrees to abide by their rules?

Now we are pleased to give our daughter Olivia to have the cochlear implant because it is worth and she can sign and some talk. In future, she will have two options to whether to communicate with hearing and deaf people. Perhaps she will have both, who know!

She is still a happy little girl who enjoys all the same things as everyone else.

thanks swiperfox

(do you watch dora?)

(can you tell?? )

sorry, only just caught up

I'm an SLT, I have been specialising in treating deaf children for a number of years now. I have treated children with cochlear implants and I've seen some good and bad outcomes.

The good outcomes are very good, of course, especially if the child can be fully integrated into mainstream as the parent wishes. But I do think they lose something of their identity as a deaf person. The Deaf community is very strong, and the child would/could be a part of that.

My main concern with implants is that the support is often very patchy at best. I don't feel they get the speech and language therapy or the support from TOD to the level that would be required to make the amount of progress needed for mainstream school. Children who are implanted later (after 4 years) tend to stuggle, they have to start mainstream school when they barely have any spoken language.

I know this is also true of other special needs groups, I'm just talking from the point of view of deaf children. Often, the hearing parents have been anti-sign language, so they haven't got much of that prior to the implant either.

Jimjams' point about not quite being part of the deaf or hearing world sums up my feelings exactly. I have often felt uneasy about children on my caseload. I also feel uneasy leaving work for non-qualified teaching assistants to carry out in my absence. I honestly think the work needs to be carried out by an SLT (though many SLTs would disagree). I often return to a school to find the work asn't been done, or hasn't been done correctly. Unfortnately, I cover a very wide geographical area, and as the children are all in mainstream, it's not physically possible to see them all myself. It would be better if they were in one place, from that point of view.

These children face so many challenges, some of them overcome their difficulties and make good progress, I'm afraid some of them sink in mainstream and don't realise their potential.

It's a shame the deaf schools are closing, takes away choice; I think parents should have a choice of mainstream or specialised education. I'm familiar with the school at southport that was mentioned (Birkdale). It had an excellent reputation.

It all sounds great in principal, but how realistically useful would it be? I have never been in contact with anyone who uses sign language. And so far neither have my brothers (16 and 13). You could argue that it's not something that they would ever need to use.

In saying that, I was taught the alphabet in sign language at primary school. It was only a 1 day visit by a profoundly deaf lady when I was about 8, but I still remember it to this day! BUT I've never been in a situation where it has been necessary.

Just offering another view from a person who has no real contact with anyone deaf.

DP went to an appointment with work last night (SF here) and the couple had 4 children, the youngest being 2, and from the age of 6 months they have taught him to sign. Only very basic things ie milk, more, finished/enough, juice etc and they found that by doing that, they reduced the amount of crying that the baby did becuse he had a way to communicate rather than crying and his parents trying to figure what he needed. He used signs up until he could talk and then they stopped signing because he was able to communicate through speech instead.
A bit off the topic here but I thought it was really interesting and quite surprised that it isn't encouraged more as it seems a logical thing to do!!