Read this.

[teejay100000]

www.cps.org.uk/cps_catalog/why%20can%27t%20they%20read.pdf

'However, when I suggested to RollaCoasta that some less academically able kids might enjoy a manual occupation such as painting '

You're making me feel nauseous now.

How would you feel if it was your child who came home from school having been told that they 'might enjoy a manual occupation such as painting'??

If people choose to do manual jobs after or instead of university or as well as more academic work then that's up to them (and good luck to them finding such work in the world as it is now!) but don't all of our children deserve the sort of education which makes that a real choice??

With up to 200,000 students being turned away you really can't see that standards are being raised?? And that it's more competitive than ever to get into university?

Are you sure you really have been to university Breton because your views and arguments seem to be coming out of a whole different century.

'Given the recession it seems that many school-leavers are seeking university placements as a way of stalling starting work'

Not to mention the mature students who now find themselves out of a job and need to retrain or wish they'd gone to university as teenagers in order that they could compete in the current climate.

As a sixth form teacher my students are going to be the victims here. I've just taught a very bright, incredibly hard working straight A student who can't get into her local university (doesn't want to travel further afield for financial reasons).

I notice nobody has yet explained how synthetic phonics helps you know how to pronounce and understand minute and minute and live and live.

Off for my tea and await your replies!

Well as I'm the one actually reading the book:

Yes, Matthew Crawford is an academic philosopher and a motorbike mechanic. As such he sees value in academic and practical skills and work. In his first chapters he comments on the declining role of teaching practical skills (shop) in US high schools. Which is why I mentioned it to Breton.

He appears to me to be suggesting we re-evaluate the importance of 'trade' skills and that the balance has swung too far in favour of purely academic education for all children.

"Whilst manufacturing jobs have left our shores......the manual trades have not"

5candles wrote: "Most require high level, transferrable skills and people are much more likely to move jobs and top up their skills and training."

Unfortunately, turning out hundreds of Sports Journalists, Resort Managers, and Media Studies graduates isn't going to fill the void.

Where are the majority of the next generation of scientists going to come from? It certainly won't be Britain. China, Korea, and India are turning out far greater numbers than we are. It's been suggested that what scientists Britain does produce in the next few years will, primarily, come from the Independent sector because the Sciences are difficult. It's not easy to dumb down Pure Maths or Theoretical Physics. Much easier to choose a soft option like media studies or any one of the other various Mickey Mouse "degrees" presently on offer!

5candles: "And what the hell happened to learning for its own sake and to better yourself and the world." sic

Nothing, it's very worthwhile, but we shouldn't pretend that such activities necessarily equate with going on to obtain an HE qualification.

5candles wrote "And how many people in FE think that they're going to be Einstein?"

Why bring Einstein into the discussion? Anyway, I thought we were discussing HE.

Plenty of ordinary people have met the standard in the past and gone to university. You appear to be one of those inverted snobs who consider that a working class child does not have the ability to meet such a gold standard.

5candles wrote:"How would you feel if it was your child who came home from school having been told that they 'might enjoy a manual occupation such as painting'??"

Another example of your inverted snobbery?

5candles wrote: "Are you sure you really have been to university Breton because your views and arguments seem to be coming out of a whole different century."

Well of course my university experience was from a different century! The twentieth century!

fivecandles the difference between minute and minute is a much later skill that develops with a child's vocabulary now if you had used read and read ...

'5candles: "And what the hell happened to learning for its own sake and to better yourself and the world." sic

Nothing, it's very worthwhile, but we shouldn't pretend that such activities necessarily equate with going on to obtain an HE qualification.'

BUT WHY NOT??

What exactly do you think HE qualifications ARE for? What is a degree in English Literature for or Ancient Greek?

'5candles wrote "And how many people in FE think that they're going to be Einstein?"

Why bring Einstein into the discussion? Anyway, I thought we were discussing HE. '

My point being that just because I have enough intelligence to realize that my playing netball for a local team is not the same or even a route into the Olympics my C grade students are intelligent enough to realize that they're not going to go to Oxbridge or necessarily make scientific breakthroughs or become doctors but none of that means they don't deserve HE.

'Plenty of ordinary people have met the standard in the past and gone to university. You appear to be one of those inverted snobs who consider that a working class child does not have the ability to meet such a gold standard.'

What the Hell are you talking about??

I teach in one of the most deprived areas in the country. I teach working class kids who make the gold standard every day. I help them to get there!!

But if you look at the facts (about which you appear to know very little) working class kids are 7 times less likely to get into the top universities than their rich peers. They are less likely to progress to A Level. They are less likely to get A grades (of which an obscene amount are taken up by kids from private school).

Once again, don't you read the papers? What DO you actually know about education in the world today as opposed to your rose tinted, nostalgic vision of it?

'5candles wrote:"How would you feel if it was your child who came home from school having been told that they 'might enjoy a manual occupation such as painting'??"

Another example of your inverted snobbery?'

WHAT????

What are you saying? Are you rational at all?

I am not a snob and I am not snobby about manual occupations such as painting but I would be absolutely livid if somebody like you said to my child or anybody else's that he or she is not entitled to an academic education.

'fivecandles the difference between minute and minute is a much later skill that develops with a child's vocabulary '

Er, that was sort of my point. A bright child or even a child who would like to read a range of texts is very soon going to grow out of synthetic phonics which though useful is boring and limited.

And will not enable you to access ALL of the richness and strangeness of the English language.

I teach lots of C grade students. C grade for all sorts of reasons. One (actually she ended up with a B) was one of the cleverest students I've ever taught but only came to 40% of her lessons because she was living alone and pursuing a court case against her abusive father. Others who achieved C working to their maximum. Others who were incredibly lazy and could have got something better. I can't think of any who didn't deserve at the least the chance of HE. Some might have blown it and some might have thrived in it.

In fact, A Levels are a very poor predictor of degree class so nobody can predict exactly who will and won't benefit in HE.

There are lots of Mumsnetters who achieved poor A Levels but went on to amazing things at HE. Isn't Riven an example? She's got a phD now but cocked up her A Levels cos she went on a bender or something.

You need to think much more carefully about what you're saying Breton because the people you dismiss so easily as undeserving or unequal to a higher education are all individuals who are just as deserving as anyone else.

For fivecandles and anyone else who might be reading!

[...]Lord Chancellors were cheap as sprats,
And Bishops in their shovel hats
Were plentiful as tabby cats--
In point of fact, too many.
Ambassadors cropped up like hay,
Prime Ministers and such as they
Grew like asparagus in May,
And Dukes were three a penny.
On every side Field-Marshals gleamed,
Small beer were Lords-Lieutenant deemed,
With Admirals the ocean teemed
All round his wide dominions.
[...]
In short, whoever you may be,
To this conclusion you'll agree,
When every one is somebody,
Then no one's anybody!

Extract from Don Alhambra's aria in Act II of Gilbert & Sullivan's The Gondoliers!

fivecandles if phonics is boring it isn't being taught correctly and taught properly it will unlock the richness, beauty and idiosyncrasies of the English language. It is an early skill in reading which most children need to master before they can progress to higher level skills. Personally I believe context plays an important part in reading (as you say to know how to pronounce minute) but if taught too soon as an early reading strategy for guessing at words rather than refining pronunciation it can cause problems.

I agree with fivecandles, HE should be available to as wide a range of people as possible. No one can predict who will make the most of their education. The academically gifted may end up not making much use of their English degree at Cambridge, whereas a former struggler at an ex-poly studying computer science may develop a new piece of software that benefits us all. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, and other young people may broaden their horizons and meet people at university with whom they start new businesses.

There will always be an elite tier of universities and everybody knows which ones they are. However, lower ranked universities are still very valuable and can open people's eyes to new subjects and interests.
Just because you are not of olympic standard doesn't mean you should not participate in sport. Just because you won't get to Oxbridge doesn't mean you shouldn't participate in HE.

If wall painting offered the same career prospects and salary as Cherie Blair's legal career, then maybe she would have become a wall painter. The point of education is to expand horizons and also to enhance career prospects. We shouldn't aim to restrict possibilities.

"maisie, I am quite well informed about synthetic phonics, thanks and I really object to your patronising tone."

You astound me! How come you are saying such silly things about it, then?

"It is absolutely rubbish to say that phonic awareness alone is going to help children understand the MEANING of minute in the two sentences below where the word is not even pronounced the same depending on its CONTEXT:"

As I didn't say that phonic awareness alone is going to help children understand meaning I really don't see why you are getting your underwear contorted about it.

A child well taught with synthetic phonics will be aware that there are two ways to pronounce the vowel sound in those words and will try each way if the their first attempt produces a word that doesn't seem to fit. This, of course, assumes that they have each variation of the word in their oral vocabulary. If they 'know' both words they will will be able to work which one is required from the context. If they have only one of the words in their vocabulary they will be puzzled if it is not the one that fits and either ask an adult or consult a dictionary (which will give them alternative meanings and pronunciations). What 'non-phonic' strategy did you have in mind for this situation?

"And FGS they need enjoyment of learning and of whole texts. Yes, synthetic phonics may be brilliantly helpful but it is very, very boring for a bright child to spend too long looking at words in this way."

I really don't see how being able to automatically, accurately and fluently decode the words on a page spoils enjoyment of reading. I would have thought it rather contributes to enjoyment to be able to read every word perfectly effortlessly. I can only think, from your last sentence that for you, 'synthetic phonics' produces some warped vision of children solemnly sounding out and blending every single word they read in every text until they attain the age of majority . They do, but it is completely internalised, unconscious and is done in milliseconds.

I hope you enjoyed your tea.

@Breton.

I'm really sorry to see you and mrz arguing because I have a great deal of respect for her, and I think that you are, on the whole, talking sense!

maizie don't worry I'm not arguing honest!

Why do people keep banging on about Oxbridge? You'd think they were the only two universities in England. Or are there some chips on shoulders?

MaizieD. I agree with mrz . I think we've reconciled our differences and anyway isn't a frank and open debate healthy?

claig: I completely agree, people do mess up in their teens - didn't someone mention another poster on MN who did precisely that?

However, it's all about ability. Someone may screw up and only later get their qualifications. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be accepted for HE. They simply have to demonstrate they've got the ability.

In reference to my clip from G&S - if ever increasing numbers of people acquire degrees then the degree ceases to have any significant status as a qualification that demonstrates a higher standard of knowledge/ability and at the end of the day "nobody is anybody"!

The other point is that if more and more people are going to study degrees then the degrees become ever more dumbed down to accommodate people, who, quite frankly, shouldn't be attending universities.

It's no more snobbish than arguing for only the best in sport. If every third boy was eligible to play Premier League football then it would cease to be the Premier League.

maisieD it's not me getting my knickers in a twist and I haven't said anything that's 'silly'. You come across as patronising.

A bright child is going to master synthetic phonics pretty quickly and once you are reading confidently doing those basics is going to be boring. In fact, a bright child, as has been pointed out earlier will do what synthetic phonics teaches them to do instinctively.

The point about 'minute' is that there are two ways of pronouncing the word which denote two different meanings and are entirely dependent on context.

Synthetic phonics will only take you so far.

'I really don't see how being able to automatically, accurately and fluently decode the words on a page spoils enjoyment of reading.'

No, I have agreed many times that synthetic phonics is a way into reading. Once you CAN read you want to be discussing whole texts and not segmenting individual words and so on in class. I'm with Michael Rosen and co who believe we should be doing more to encourage creativity and reading in school.