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328 replies

teejay100000 · 19/07/2010 22:44

www.cps.org.uk/cps_catalog/why%20can%27t%20they%20read.pdf

OP posts:
maizieD · 24/07/2010 22:35

Well, what a lot of hot air!

I can't make out what age group you teach, fivecandles, but if you taught EY you would surely know that synthetic phonics has not been taught in most schools for years, nor has it been 'government guidance' for any more than 3 years (Sept 2007); which I certainly don't consider to be a 'long time'.

I find it hard to follow the GCE debate, but I do recall that different exam boards (and there were loads of them) had different ways of grading. Some did it numerically, some with letters. (I took mine mid 60s, numerical grades)

Anyone who thinks that a child with L3 in English is functionally literate is perpetuating an extremely sick myth. These are the children I am employed to work with. I haven't yet encountered one who could be classed as anywhere near 'functionally literate'. I have even worked with one child, SAT L3a for English, who literally could not read or write!

It is rather ironic reading the argument about 'differentiation' for these children, too, with the assumption being made that they aren't very bright children, or that they have difficulty in learning. They are mostly just as 'bright' as their peers who can read; some are very bright and some are definitely not, but most of them are in that 'average' range.

What I find very frustrating is that some teachers are closing their eyes to the absolute truth about literacy levels - that some 20% of children leave primary school functionally illiterate- and getting very cross with others who have their eyes wide open. This sort of bickering and defensiveness is doing absolutely nothing for those poor children.

RollaCoasta · 24/07/2010 23:08

A 3A reader can:

  1. Read and evaluate longer chapter books
and non-fiction texts independently.
  1. Read aloud with intonation and expression
using punctuation and connectives to maintain fluency and understanding
  1. Re-read to determine or clarify meaning
  2. Extract information from non-fiction
texts to answer given questions.
  1. Use knowledge of word structures and
origins to develop understanding of word meanings including subject-specific vocabulary
  1. Explain how writers use figurative and
expressive language to create images and atmosphere
  1. Justify opinions about whole books or the
characters within it by pointing to evidence within the book.
  1. Developing text appropriate reading
style e.g. skim-read for information

I cannot, for the life of me, understand how a child achieving these objectives is 'functionally illiterate. Please explain without mentioning any requirements to read Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy or the War Poets.

I know I'm a simple kind of person but I would imagine 'functional literacy' means the ability to read text necessary to lead your life. Perhaps I am wrong.

maizieD · 24/07/2010 23:54

I have seen that list of criteria before and keep a copy of it to remind me of the complete mismatch between theory and practice.

I too, would not describe a child who could achieve these objectives as being 'functionally illiterate', but, unfortunately, most supposed L3s do not get anywhere near them.

In fact, looking at it now is making me laugh, sourly.

"2. Read aloud with intonation and expression
using punctuation and connectives to
maintain fluency and understanding."

Nope!

"3. Re-read to determine or clarify meaning"

It's as much as one can do to get them to read anything once, let alone re-read it.

"7) Justify opinions about whole books and characters within it (that's very poor grammar, or were you just copying inaccurately?) by pointing to evidence within the the book."

These children have never read a whole book (unless you count one of a few pages long). Their universal opinion of reading is that it is 'boring' or 'hard' (I do a little questionaire if I have time when I am assessing them, or just talk to them and listen to their comments over the first few weeks of term).

I'd be interested to know if you have actually Teacher Assessed children using these criteria? (Not being funny, genuinely would like to know)

I really cannot stress how very poor these children are; I'm not making this up, why should I? If you were to come and listen to these children you would, I am sure, be as horrified/realistic as I am.

jackstarbright · 24/07/2010 23:57

Rollacosta - isn't L3a achieved in year 3/4 by many pupils? Reaching it in year 6 must be pretty tough on their self esteem. In fact, its taken those children about 7 years to learn to read!

And, when they leave the nurturing primary school environment for secondary school, could they not regress - especially if they have no enjoyment of reading and good reading habits.

jackstarbright · 25/07/2010 00:02

X posted MaizieD.

Out of interest - do you get your pupils as soon as they arrive in year 7.

RollaCoasta · 25/07/2010 00:21

Here's the link to the APP grid that we should both be using to assess the readers in primary and secondary:

nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/150772

page 11

What I can't understand is how children achieving this level of reading are then classed 'functionally illiterate'. No-one's really explained that yet.

Surely you don't 'forget' how to read? Perhaps the reading material is wrong?

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 09:32

maizie, I currently teach at 6th form level which means I deal with kids who come from 20+ different secondary schools from a 5-10 mile radius BUT I have and still do teach secondary age kids in other capacities i.e. G & T, taster days, C/D borderline etc. I began my career in an 11-18 secondary school in London and did some of my teaching placements in challenging secondary schools in inner city London including Hackney. But I also see schools as a parent via my 2 primary aged children.

3 years IS a long time in education. I have not come across a school where synthetic phonics is not well established. My neices and nephews were doing the Jolly Phonics programme 10+ years ago.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not disagreeing that there are too many children with literacy problems and I am certainly not trivialising this situation. It's appalling. My angle is simply that it's not the fault of teachers or schools who with a very few exceptions do their absolute best to help their students.

My issues on this thread are:

  1. That this 'new' report says nothing new about strategies namely sythetic phonics that help kids learn to read.

2.) The report as some on this thread are suggesting that where kids still struggle to read it is the fault of the teachers or schools or their strategies. In short, the report suggests that teachers are incompetent and have this bizarre perception that teachers sort of sit there while kids play with plasticine with 10 years. This is completely at odds with everything I know and have experienced in education.

3.) Some of the issues that have emerged from this discussion by the likes of Breton - that education should be elitist - that I find really disturbing.

jackstarbright · 25/07/2010 10:07

Rollacosta - Reading is just a skill - isn't it? Pretty much like driving a car. And, whilst passing your driving test gives you the right to drive - it doesn't mean you are a good driver. You need regular practice and experience.

There's been some American research that suggests US children from poorer homes 'full back' academically during their (admittedly long) summer vacation. If reading isn't supported and encouraged at home, then 'reluctant readers' will surely regress.

And might there not be some 'teaching to the SATs test' happening here? Working through practice papers and the like.

Also, I'm not sure how an external marker can assess several points on your list. Eg Reading a whole book or reading aloud skills.

jackstarbright · 25/07/2010 10:35

'fall back'

Plus, I'm not blaming KS2 teachers - more the way the system is set up.

mrz · 25/07/2010 10:58

By Breton1900 Sat 24-Jul-10 20:26:07
mrz: No, and neither did mine!

I would be interested to know your sources for CSEs regarding grading A-E. As I recall CSEs were always graded numerically but you seem to be more familiar with them than I am.

mrz wrote: Strangely enough Breton1900 I remember the old CSEs being graded A-E although obviously my grammar school didn't support CSEs."

Perhaps you could explain how you, who sat your O levels prior to 1962, seem apparently so familiar with the CSEs that were not in fact, introduced until 1965?

Actually Breton I never said I sat my O levels before 1962 (that is another of your assumptions) but I have my certificates here clearly graded numerically in 1974 I also have my husbands results (sat 2 years later and a mixture of CSE and GCE exams from another LA and exam board) where CSEs and GCEs are both graded alphabetically.

mrz · 25/07/2010 11:19

Maizie I would argue that synthetic phonics has been taught in some areas for many years. ~I first encountered Jolly Phonics in a local school in 1992 or 3 and introduced into the school I was working at the following year. When I started teaching in my present school I took Jolly Phonics with me and by the following year the authority was rolling out training led by Sue Lloyd herself.
Our literacy advisor at that time now acts as a Jolly Phonics trainer ...
As I know you work for the same authority and having read about your experiences in secondary schools I'm sure you are questioning (just as I am) what's gone wrong ...

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 11:38

Well I think the problems as ever are OUTSIDE of the classroom. There is only so much teachers can do if children have no experience not only of reading but of communication at all. For example, increasingly I hear of children who not only are not read to but are not sung to. Some children come into school without knowing nursery rhymes and so on. Inability to read as with most things is related to social class and parental support and education etc. But also the issue of very high expectations for very young children which mean some children esp August born boys start school feeling behind and instead of catching up fall further and further behind and are increasingly disaffected.

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 11:39

There is an argument that if we reduced the pressure and focused on fun and enjoyment of the spoken word in the early years then all our children would benefit.

maizieD · 25/07/2010 12:38

Rollacoasta said:

"What I can't understand is how children achieving this level of reading are then classed 'functionally illiterate'. No-one's really explained that yet."

Let's turn this round a little. What I cannot understand is how children who very clearly cannot achieve any of the criteria set out for achieving L3, have been given that level? Why do you think I am seething with frustration at having those criteria quoted at me and people telling me that children who are L3 are 'functionally litterate' when my practical, on the ground experience of L3 children over nearly 10 years tells me that they are nothing of the sort?

We have had Universities and leaders of industry telling us for years that many young people, even those held to be capable of getting degrees, are semi-literate, to which the government and the 'educational establishment' have responded with bland public denials of any problem at all. I personally had a friend tell me this weekend of her despair at the poor quality of literacy displayed by younger workers in the company she works for (a very large, international company). The remark was completely unsolicited; we were talking about something else at the time! I know that anecdote isn't evidence and that there never was a Golden Age etc. but when so many people are raising concerns why is there so much denial?

mrz. I know that Jolly Phonics has been very widespread for years but the success of a programme depends as much on how it is taught as what it contains. I know of EY teachers in despair because their careful phonics teaching in YR or Y1 is overturned by 'mixed methods'teaching in Y2+. And, what about the NLS Searchlights? They were attempted to be rigorously enforced by LA advisors & consultants right up until 2007; you know as well as I do that the searchlights strategies directly contravene the principles of synthetic phonics teaching.

Even now some people don't know about the 'new' guidance! Have you not seen the TES thread recently where a KS2 teacher said that she was completely unaware of the 'simple view of reading' and didn't know that the searchlights stratgies had been superceded?

Sue Lloyd training in our LA? I'm sure it was very good at the time, but did she train all the teachers in a school or just KS1?

And, don't the effects of training wash out over time as new teachers and HTs come into schools with different ideas and beliefs? I have known Sue Lloyd for about 4 years now and she has never mentioned coming to our LA to train in all that time so I assume she must have come earlier. I suspect that 4+ years is plenty of time for training to be diluted. Surely, unless all the teachers are trained and the whole school uses the appropriate SP strategies there is lots of room for 'other strategies' to come creeping back in (if they ever went away!)?

And, I am afraid that the children's IEPs from primary school still show massive evidence of whole word/mixed methods 'rememdiation'. I do admit that most of these IEPs begin before 2007, so are in line with the then current guidance. Whether this changes over the next few years remains to be seen.

jackstarbright. I identify and assess every pupil coming into Y7 with a L3 or below for English. Usually this is the Teacher Asessment, which I feel is more accurate than the NCT test (SAT) result. We don't usually get the official NCT result until late September. There are always some surprises!

If their word reading and spelling ages are roughly in line with their chronological age and they can competently read all of the placement passages for the programme I use, I don't withdraw them for extra help. This is very rare, though.

mrz · 25/07/2010 12:44

We often have children enter school unable to string a sentence together so I would agree to some extent with what fivecandles says except I wouldn't say that it isn't restricted to one social class, increasingly we are seeing children with professional parents who have spent long hours in childcare displaying significant language delay. It may be that this isn't a new phenomenon and it has only become apparent to us since our CC was opened .

Breton1900 · 25/07/2010 12:54

mrz: "Actually Breton I never said I sat my O levels before 1962 (that is another of your assumptions)"

No you didn't but this is what you wrote:

By mrz Sat 24-Jul-10 16:16:48 : Obviously I'm much older than Breton because when I sat my O levels they were numeric grades.
By mrz Sat 24-Jul-10 17:47:22 : No Breton my exam board didn't operate a 1-5 instead of A-E as I said in my post... originally O levels were graded numerically.
By mrz Sat 24-Jul-10 17:43:35 :I was pointing out that in the "good old days" pre alphabetic gradings...

Clearly you were in error here as MaizieD has pointed out that she took her O levels in the mid 60s and they were graded numerically whereas in 1962, were I went to school, grades were A-E. It is therefore quite clear that, contrary to your above comments, different exam boards did operate different grading systems, which I believe is what I suggested ? here [By Breton1900 Sat 24-Jul-10 17:35:46: Going back to O levels - I assume your Exam Board operated 1-5 rather than A-E.]

So while you did not categorically confirm the year in which you sat your O levels you implied it was prior to 1962, by your claim that the alphabetical gradings replaced the numerical system, despite my earlier statement, and the later confirmation by MaizieD that, in the mid 60s her O level grades were numerical. You compounded this illusion by claiming that you were ?obviously? much older than I was and referred to the ?good old days?, continuing to maintain that numerical values were phased out and replaced with alphabetical values when, in point of fact, both systems were running concurrently until, at least the mid 1960s. Thus you gave the distinct impression that you had taken your exams prior to 1962.

Perhaps you should have been less disingenuous?

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 13:04

It's really important to acknowledge that there's a very big difference between the moans of university lecturers and my own moans when students' essays lack structure or their spelling is erratic (but whose understanding is sound and may even be really bright in some areas) and kids who are really struggling to master basic reading and writing such that they're not going to be passing or even sitting exams like GCSEs.

As for 'mixed methods' creeping in at Yr2+ why the hell not? Are you seriously suggesting that young children should do synthetic phonics all day long from Reception and nothing else??? Because that is going to be mind-numbingly boring and a massive turn off.

My kids began jolly phonics aged 3/4 in nursery, mastered reading in Reception and were reading confidently in Yr 1. Their school is absolutely converted to synthetic phonics in fact they've been doing it for years and years but the idea of my kids being stuck in a classroom in Yr 2 still looking at the mouse and the snake and doing the a a a ants crawling thing is bizarre.

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 13:07

Once they've mastered the basics no amount of jolly phonics is going to help kids distinguish the difference between minute and minute for example.

mrz · 25/07/2010 13:12

I acknowledge my error in assuming you were younger than I Breton

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 13:16

Also what are you suggesting Maizie? The advice about synthetic phonics is there. The programmes, resources and training are there. If there are some teachers and school who remain ignorant or are choosing to ignore it then they are exceptions. And they are not alone responsible for literacy problems nationally. It is not the system or teachers or schools as a whole who can be blamed for these problems either in this scenario. In fact, with Sure Start and setting up this 1:1 support for students with difficulties and backing synthetic phonics, the last Labour Govt has surely done everything possible to address literacy.

mrz · 25/07/2010 13:21

Maizie Sue Lloyd led training at the old training centre at Neville's Cross in the 1990s then when the new Management Centre opened she made a return visit and training was open to any school who wished to send staff regardless of KS. I know when I attended in the 90's it was only the two reception teachers who attended but this was followed up by whole school training from an advisor employed by Jolly Learning.
The later training sessions at the Management Centre were well attended across KS as JP was better known in the county.
I also arranged whole school training with a JP advisor a couple of years ago as a number of new (recently qualified) staff said they hadn't had phonics training at university.

fivecandles · 25/07/2010 13:22

I repeat these are SOCIAL problems. Maybe there are some children with professional parents who don't have time for them with literacy difficulties but it is primarily a problem for white, working class children and especially boys and especially boys with summer birthdays. Literacy difficulties are compounded in this country because we have one of possibly the hardest language to learn because it doesn't work phonetically the way most languages do and because of the rise of technology - Facebook, mobile phones, tv which distract from reading, singing etc and long working hours and still not good and expensive childcare.....

mrz · 25/07/2010 13:28

As a SENCO I am fighting struggling with our support teacher who continues to use whole word methods regardless of what I or the Provision Map says Maizie so I don't dispute that it is happening in other schools. All I can say is that I hope the 5 days of quality phonics cancels out her 15 mins a week of whole word recognition and I will persevere.

mrz · 25/07/2010 13:32

I disagree with the social / class label and believe it is a problem with society as a whole. A child who spends long hours in day care with poorly educated and low paid staff is as much at risk as any other child regardless of parent's class

mrz · 25/07/2010 13:36

I would also argue that Sure Start often fails to support those most in need. Many of the children entering our school with most obvious language problems have attended the Sure Start centre since they were babies.

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