What is a fair house split after divorce and years apart?

[CrumbocalypseNow]

Name changed but am a long time poster. I have sought legal advice but the advice was to try to speak to my ex husband as we are on good terms. However, because of the way he is I need to be very clear on what is fair and what is reasonable before putting any kind of idea to him as he's very rigid in his thinking on certain things and has zero empathy with no idea of what is actually reasonable. So wanted to ask the vast experience which makes up this board on what is fair and reasonable.

Have been divorced/separated 20 years and was married for 15 years with two small children now grown up although still supporting youngest at uni.

When we divorced, we made a verbal agreement in mediation that I would stay in the house but we'd split it 60/40 when I sold it when our children were grown up. I'd not have any claim on his pension but we cashed in an endowment and I got that which was about 10k which settled a credit card I had in my name but which had been used for driving lessons, a computer for freelance work, and house things.

I realised on speaking to him recently that he thinks the 60/40 split is based on the house value now and not what it was then. My understanding is that it was based on what it was when we split up as I was waiving my right to part of his pension. I had a valuation at the time and obviously it has gone up in value since then to the tune of around 100k. The mortgage is 120k and he will be in a position to pay off his half of the mortgage when it comes up for renewal next year. He works for a local authority and has a good pension. I had no pension as was a single Mum struggling for years doing freelance or part time work. I paid all house costs, insurance, mortage since 2006.

We get on well and he had to rent all that time while I got to live in the house with our chidren. I don't want to be unfair on him. The split was because he fell in love with his boss (didn't have an affair but would probably count as emotional affair) but mostly have realised he's quite autistic and really struggled with small children and just wanted to be out of the house. I grew to feel resentful and unsupported and when he admitted to being in love with his boss and wanting us all to be friends, I just said I'd had enough and wanted out. The lack of empathy for not only myself but for his children was tough in those early years.

Move to the current day and cost of living crisis and the fact the house needs repairs and I couldn't afford it on my salary alone and it's coming to the time of needing to sell, I needed a lodger and we actually get on well enough that I suggest he move back in, pays me rent rather than another landlord, and we do up the house together to sell it or even potentially just live separate lives in the house (I have no desire for another relationship). It means he gets to see his children when they're home and it works as well as it can do given the circumstances.

Obviously that muddies the water when we need to separate everything out. What on earth do I do? We get on well but I ultimately dream of my own little flat somewhere but don't know what to suggest in terms of splitting the house. It's not fair really if we do 50/50 based on what the house is worth now as I paid the mortgage alone for years (although he was paying rent elsewhere). I also would have been entitled at the time to some of his pension. I do have one now but not very old and I don't think I'll ever be able to retire. I had thought I might be able to downsize a bit and use some of the house equity for a pension.

Sorry that's long - just no idea where to start on what's fair. Obviously we should have had it written and signed at the time and it's my fault really that we didn't as I was just really struggling back then and struggling to stay on top of everything and I let things slip. Then it got too late and then I realised the misunderstanding. I'm happy to come to a new arrangement but want it to be fair to both of us.

If you never did a clean break consent ordering you’ve not given up rights to his pension

housing would usually be based on current value , eg if yo had been awarded a mesher all those years ago the general expectation is you’d pay the mortgage the he’d get his share at same based on the then current price - as you’ve been tying up his capital leaving him unable to invest it and grow it all that’ll time,

however, you should remind him that you can make a claim on pension and he needs to start negotiating

We just did couples mediation and agreed in mediation but we never had a written order finalised. Yes the advice was to get this through first before finalising the divorce but we just verbally agreed in mediation and didn't sign anything.

We were supposed to but I can't remember now why we didn't - it was probably my fault as I was struggling massively at the time and I'm terrible at financial admin at the best of times.

Also he's just not the kind of person to go against what was agreed - it's just he's not remembered what we agreed - he's forgotten the pension sacrifice bit on my part. If he'd ever met anyone else or started to behave differently, I'd have had to seek legal advice and get something sorted but it's never happened and now here we are.

There wasn't one. Verbally agreed in mediation nothing more.

I expect a legal battle will result in your getting 50% of the equity and 50% of his pension for the 15 years you were together. Which is a fair deal for both of you.

If you tell him:

We need to sell the house. I'll get 60% but none of your pension, as agreed in mediation......what will he say?

You were screwed over by not getting the finances legal bound at the time, no woman should give up the chance of a share of a pension.
Do it now, submit it to the court and let them decide. There are clear guidelines about what’s fair, he will have to accept them.

By 75 maybe I'd have enough pension to retire :) I've always been adaptable for work. The first industry I worked in has disappeared so I learnt something completely new and technical aged 40 and now that industry is changing because of AI and so I'm adapting again learning new skills into a new market. I'm fit and healthy so no reason why I shouldn't be able to work then. I'm good at what I do and my past experience should help. I have ideas for ways I can earn some money even post 70.

But yes waiving rights to pension probably not the best idea but it was what was advised by the mediation person at the time. I think we're both going to need to actually get together figures and sit down together. This has all really helped though if only for me to realise that the house value is reasonably taken from current value and not at the value when we divorced.

He'd agree because that's exactly his understanding of the agreeement.

The problem is my understanding of the agreement is that it was fixed at the house value then. I have a valuation from that time because I got it valued for the financial settlement because of what we agreed - we just never signed on it.

So if we sell today he would be agreeing to 40% of 280k (equity when we divorced) instead of 40% of 380k (equity in house now) and I don't think he'd agree for me getting the 100k difference as he's forgotten entirely about the pension sacrifice.

We just need to work out how much I've waived in his pension and how that compares to the 100k equity difference I think to work out a fair split for both of us.

I don’t think a 60/40 split based on current is unfair to be honest OP.

His capital and lending capacity has been tied up in the house for the last 2 decades, plus he’s been paying rent during that time. 60/40 based on current value is fair, yes his % has gone up but so has yours.

This is exactly why nearly everyone recommends a clean break divorce to avoid this sort of mess! You need valuations now. Everything should be considered in terms of money and I think you need to start again and get a financial settlement now. Divorce is rarely fair but it means taking a pragmatic view on finances that you can both live with. So go back to mediation or get a solicitor to unpack it. Whatever you do, get moving with it and don’t over complicate it. You don’t need to be clear about what’s fair. Possibly no such thing but a solicitor will guide you as to what’s doable and sensible.

We have been divorced for years. We got the divorce without the financial order in place. Not ideal but it was unlikely either of us were going to go back on what was agreed. He's much too honest for that (part of his autism) and just not a vindictive kind of person and neither am I.

We still go out for children's birthdays etc together. I still see my ex in-laws and still get on with them. Unusual I know but I always wanted to make it as easy as possible for our children. The reasons we couldn't stay married was no fault of theirs and his relationship with them is entirely separate to my relationship with him. I was a child of a very acrimonious divorce - I was made a ward of court as was a 70s 'tug of love child' and it was very destabilising. I never wanted that for my children.

I do know there are relationships where this just isn't possible if an ex is narcissistic or very abusive then no contact is really the only way forwards if no children are involved and I feel for the children when no contact isn't possible and the parent uses them in their manipulation, abuse, and control. I've just been fortunate that my ex isn't like that.

Neither of us is going to take anything through the courts. Even my solicitor advised we just talk about it as that is going to work out best financially for us. Neither of us are going to want to spend any of what we can agree to split between us on legal fees.

Neither of us are unreasonable. He's just a bit autistic and so now knowing we remember what was agreed differently, I need to know what is fair before I broach it with him as his initial reaction is likely to be fixed on what he thinks was agreed.

It's going to be a shock to him on the pension but if I have some basic guidelines on what is a usual split then although he might be a bit grumpy at first, it just takes him time to process things. That's why I need something firm in my mind first before I speak to him because he will push back (he's very rigid in his thought and he's certain on what was agreed) but if I can tell him what is legally considered usual and fair and that it wouldn't have been a reasonable agreement for me to waive a percentage of his pension for just a 10% difference in equity, he will go away and have a think about it all, process it, and come back ready to talk.

Our children know if you tell him something he might not want to know but he needs to do (for instance he has a potential health issue which one of our children found out they have and so he needs to get tested). He will hate this and be in denial to start off with and so you find the right time and just know it will take a few attempts before he accepts it would be a good idea to go get tested. To start off with he will be fully clear in his mind that he's completely fine and it's all a fuss about nothing. So even if you get all the denial in that first conversation, a few weeks later, he'll come back and say 'so tell me more about that test you mentioned I should get?'

How much, roughly, has he paid in rent over the 20 years?

Did you receive any tax credits/ universal credit because you were raising the children alone on a low salary?

You are talking about £40k, which is just over £150 per month for the course of the whole time he's had his money tied up in the mortgage. Given that he's been renting for all of that time as well, and that he could have been paying down a mortgage instead, I'd think carefully about what is fair.

@CrumbocalypseNow There isn’t a usual split after this length of time! You are not usual snd not doing clean break has brought this about. He and you need to draw a line in the sand and move on from now. The advice you get will reflect the situation now and whatever the valuation 20 years ago is meaningless. That’s pretty obvious. You haven’t agreed anything because you have no financial order!

I had a gap between divorce and sorting finances to delay the house sale for dc. The value would be today but it would be after any outstanding mortgage including exit fees and sale costs of 3% (assuming you haven’t taken out more mortgage for your own benefit). There is no your or his share of the outstanding mortgage the 60:40 is based on the net asset. You can probably get a redemption figure if you have online banking immediately.

You probably won’t get credit for paying mortgage or repairs since you split as he has also had to fund housing costs - he could claim occupational rent due to you having sole use of house and excluding him from his asset. so in practice you’ve both had housing costs for past 20 years and they cancel each other out.

A local govt pension he can download a statement showing how much he had when you split and how much since as this pension is bought annually so it’s very easy to apportion without needing expert advice as there will be a printout showing how much pension he bought each year.

This will show whether your extra 20% equity in house is significantly different than the pension share you gave up and whether it’s worth renegotiating.

Unless you couldn’t work due childcare he’d have a good case to argue after separation each person could make their own pension arrangements and this portion should be ringfenced. The pension won’t show a lump sum just what the annual pension would be so you may need to work out what annuity / lump sum would equate to that level of pension.

If you had paid him his 40% immediately then he could have invested that money and added value over 20 years instead he’s left it invested it in the home so he would be entitled to the added value on his 40%.

No it's 100k difference.

I get 60% of the 280k equity which was what was the equity at point of divorce and then on top I then get 100% of the extra 100k of equity which has accumulated since the point of divorce. That was what I gave up all rights in his pension for.

So it's 60% of 280k plus 100% of 100k = 338k (obviously I'd need to buy a flat with this so a small retirement flat plus a bit for my pension)

or 60% of 380k = 228k (just about enough to find a retirement flat locally with no extra for pension).

However, given he's forgotten that I gave up rights in his pension. Both of us will want to find something fair.

You didnt give up the rights to his pension, the same way he didnt agree to what you're proposing. You just talked about it. He obviously doesn't see things the same way.
You cant just bully him and take away his rights. The house and pension go into a pot, factoring in mortgage and him paying rent.

non argument as he could ask for 1/2 his rent

I would of thought it was current value

@Grumpyeeyore Thank you - that's really really helpful.

When we divorced our youngest wasn't in school and the eldest had just started.

The fact I wasn't able to buy him out should also be considered as he could have had that money invested.

I agree that my understanding of it being percentage of the house as it was valued then might have been incorrect but it was that understanding on which I waived all rights to his pension on.

It was all a gamble though at the time as we didn't know what would happen to house prices or pensions or anything but I'm not sure I would have agreed to waive all rights in his pension for 20% extra of the house given it's only a small mid terrace and given I wasn't in a position to save into a pension when the children were small.

I'm not trying to bully him. It was a verbal agreement - not just discussed. All agreed in mediation with a trained mediator where we paid them for their time. We just didn't get it written and signed - not sure why now. I think it was waiting on some official form which needed to be sent back and which never was.

It's just over 20 years ago and we've both got different memories of what was agreed - we definitely agreed it all and were both happy with what was agreed.

Neither of us now are accrimonious so it's not something which will need to go through courts. I don't want to be unfair to him. I also don't want to be unfair to myself so was reaching out on what is considered fair.

No, the difference in your expectations is £40k.

He is expecting 40% of £380k which is £152k, with you getting £228k.

You are expecting him to take 40% of £280k which is £112k, with you getting £268k.

The difference is £40k.

How did you think you'd get £338k?? That would be 85% of the original sum plus £100k

I think if you add the market value of the house plus the current value of all pensions and assets then split 60/40. Husband can then "buy back" your share of his pension from his share of the house.

@Lougle yes I did receive tax credits due to being on low income. And he's paid a fair bit in rent.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner we won't need to go back into mediation or involve solicitors but can just talk to each other and agree something together. This is what the solicitor I did see suggested as we've agreed everything so far.

We're all going on holiday in a few weeks with our adult children and their partners - we get on well. But I became aware recently that his recollection of the agreement was different to mine and before I came straight out and said 'oh that's not how I remember it', I needed to make sure I'm clear what would be considered fair now.

@Lougle

It doesn't really matter as it looks like general consensus is that with no formal agreement and because we remember it differently, we'll have to start again anyway so it's based on the value of the house now but then we also need to include all the other assets too and work it out again.

@CrumbocalypseNow You will need a court to agree the financial order. Mediators can let you know if the joint proposal is “fair” and likely to be agreed by the court. Were you assuming you could avoid the court?