Help… what is a fair settlement?

[Trailmix3]

Some facts about me and husband

married over 10 years
house worth 340k and we have about 150k equity
3 children
I earn around 50k
he’s in a slightly worse position around 40k but quite a bit of personal debt

we have agreed that due to his weird hours at work and my ability to take on the mortgage, I could remain in the house and buy him out.

with the kids, they will be staying with me Sunday-Thursday then we will split the weekends (every other weekend)

he will take them for tea couple of times a week and help more during holidays. He could come over at weekends too and see them if he drops them off at school.

wikivorce says to go for 60:40 split? Is that possible?

we’ve also agreed that we will remove 20k from his equity because we took on a bigger mortgage to cover his credit card debt. I know this is now considered joint debt but he’s agreed with me that it’s his doing.

what is a fair number to offer him for a clean break?

can we agree this number ourselves? Can a judge reject?

we don’t want to include pensions either, we both agree we probably have similar pots

What do you each need? Have you checked if you can get a mortgage for the amount you need? Eg if you are eligible for 4x salary, you'd need all the equity. Where is he going to live?

Pension pots, may be important to check that they are of similar value. Do either of you work in the public sector, where values would be more?

In terms of an equity split, 40% of £150k is £60k and 50% would be £75k. Only a £15k difference, which would be completely eaten up with legal fees if either wanted to argue the toss on that.

A judge can decide to accept what you agree between yourselves, or to challenge it if it seems unfair.

My personal view is that you are being too hard on the ex, by proposing only 40% AND taking away some money because of past debt. I think that if he takes any legal advice, they would also agree it is too one-sided and would be tempted to argue for more. At present I think that you are proposing that he gets £40k (the £60k of equity minus £20k) and you keep the £110k equity, which would be more like a 75/25 split.

Proposing more like a 50/50, and THEN taking off the 20k, would be more like a £55k settlement.

Assume you have means to keep paying the mortgage and that child maintenance has also been considered.

I can’t afford 55k in one go. I have a decision in principle and it won’t go that high sadly.

omg this is literally going to financially destroy me.

I’ve thought about it more and actually my pension pot is about 3 x his

what can we do in this situation?

What used to happen in past years was to postpone such a settlement, making the payment due later, or agreeing that a house would only be sold when the kids were older and then the equity shared. That's called a Mesher. They have become less popular in favour of a 'clean break', since they tended to push problems down the line rather than solve them. But in principle you could argue for paying the settlement later if the ex is agreeable, to reduce disruption.

The pensions thing is going to be an issue. You could offer him a bigger chunk of pension instead of equity .... but that creates problems for you later, and doesn't help him in the near future (assuming you are both well below age 57). Plus you'd be expected to be sharing pensions anyway in a settlement.

Does your mortgage offer include future child maintenance as income? Some providers do, some don't. And of course presumably not being paid yet?

Sadly, divorce does tend to make everyone poorer.

They wouldn’t accept maintenance in the calculation for decision in principle.

im so cross at him. He cheated. He lied about money and debt. And he chose to have a shit job and get into debt. It’s the reason I’m done with him.

You pension share for starters. If your pension is X3 his a judge would expect pension sharing. I got divorced many years ago now but the judge is nsisted on seeing both pension pot statements and we pension shared. If you did 60/40 in your favour you should forget redicing his by £20k debt. You say he now still has debt, some judges expect that to be shared in a long marriage irrespective of who ran it up. If your stbxh can show just some of it was used for family/house or DC it will be seen as joint debt, because you are married, just in his name. You both need to accept divorced financially cripple couples. You can't expect to come out of a divorce with no financial pain. You could take mortgage out over a longer period to make it affordable. You could trade off some of your half of joint pension for more equity in the house. A judge will look at DC needs first, both when with you and when they stay overnight with Dad. This means they have to ensure your stbxh can accommodate himself too.

If your pension is 3x higher he’ll need more equity or you’ll need to pension share. A judge not likely to agree higher equity to you based on your higher income, higher pension

So far he’s been quite accommodating. He just doesn’t seem bothered about process or what he ends up with. He says he wants children to still have their home.

but even if he agrees to a small payout this would never be signed off by judge right?

Could you get a mortgage broker to find you a mortgage that will accept child maintenance? As previously stated some do.

A judge will look at it all and will not sign off an unfair settlement for either party.

OP, I had an initial meeting with a family law solicitor recently, and she said we should both ask for CETV values from all of our pension schemes as a first step. She then advised we worked out our proposed financial split between us, and they would look over it to check that it seems to be ‘fair’ enough before we submit it. Your situation sounds a bit complex, but it you can both stand back and consider it, and argue the case for what you agree, you could then see what your solicitor thinks?

Solidarity, I know how difficult this is.

You need to both take proper advice. You need to disclose finances properly not just guess at them. Then you can make informed decisions.

The minute he gets advice he will be told he is entitled to pension equalisation and 50% of the equity. His housing needs to be= yours. It doesn’t change because they spend more time at yours. A situation that could change.

Unless his personal debt came be entirely attributed to his personal spending it is marital debt.

What you are offering isn’t fair. It probably won’t hold the minute he gets advice.

There tends to be a 'feeling guilty' phase that makes people agree to stuff, but then they later change their minds as the reality of the rest of their lives starts to sink in,

A judge might inquire whether the ex- has received appropriate advice before considering such a settlement. Or, as often happens, whether there has been a mediation process to reach this point.

Just to echo the guilt point. My ex sounds similar to yours and began with saying he wanted nothing. Ended up asking for around 50% of the equity in our home, with £10k deferred until ds2 is 21 as, like you, I couldn't borrow the full amount at the time. He did stay away from my pension though, which is public sector and he doesn't have one. And my lawyer got him to pay the divorce fees, which weren't that much, but still. I'd get a lawyer and assume ex's view will change.

This is great that pensions aren’t automatically counted. He also owns a limited company so I could potentially use that if he kicks up a fuss. It was started before we met but has grown. I was trapped in my job whilst he essentially did the hours he wanted with his own business. He could do this because I was always around.

Pensions are automatically included in the pot. Along with house, savings, business. A judge may allow it to be set aside if immaterial and in the basis that your ex has had independent legal and agrees to it. That’s a may not a definite

but that doesn’t mean everything is split 50-50. But if you want keep all your pension you’re likely going need to trade that for something else

Pensions are included.

I can see why you are angry with him but when it comes to divorce the moralising doesn’t sort out the finances.

What @millymollymoomoo has written. My friend traded off leaving her DH pension for more equity. You need proper legal advice not wiki.

Would he be open to a short term mesher order where he gets say 10% of the property value now and 30% in 5 years?

If you sold what is available that’s cheaper, a clean is preferred so you may need to rip the plaster off and sell the home sooner rather than later.

You are the one doing most of the parenting and the children living with you. I’d say as this is due to him and his choice of job and everything else then you get the house and the kids as the kids are living you you and there shouldn’t be any £ transferred personally

It's so frustrating that courts don't take the behaviours and roles into account at all, and it seems to vary by judge (i.e. luck) whether an unequal agreement is signed off, even when you both agree. I feel like it's there to protect women who sacrificed career etc, but seems like it actually disadvantages women who carried the load and earn and save more. Good luck.

Even if the judge signed off a consent order where what would be judged as marital debts were deducted from equity and ignored the fact that your pension is 3 times his and did not share or offset you still couldn’t afford to buy him out. Even if he had no overnight care of your DC and his housing needs were for him alone.

From the courts point of view, in a long marriage (10+ years) with DC, all assets are split to enable both parties to be able to co-parent regardless of who is at fault or who was the primary carer during the marriage unless one party stayed at home and enabled the other to work as if child free and thus hindered their employment prospects and ability to earn pension.

The essential problem is what you propose is not fair. Even if DH feels guilty enough to agree for now this will be picked up when he gets independent advice or by the court.

You need to put feelings aside to reach a fair agreement.

Ok would this be considered fair?

I give him what I can afford in cash (I need to remortgage the house… again) and then The rest in my pension to get a clean break?

I just want him gone and out of my life! I don’t want this hanging over me

What you can give him in cash does not equate to what he may be entitled to and want as part of a divorce settlement. What you think is “fair” will not equate to what he is entitled to and what he decides he wants.

As many people have pointed out, he might be willing to take a lot less right now but he could change his mind. We don’t know him so we can’t say if this is a probability. If he is prone to money difficulties his “guilt” maybe overridden by need.

Cynically you can push ahead with your offer to him in expectation that the following won’t happen

1. he is advised or influenced by others that he could get more money
2. a judge blocks the application and tells him to get advice

There is precedent for personal debts and assets not to be treated as marital. In your case this could apply to his personal debt. It really depends on the judge and what he spent it on.

Judges are often reluctant to unpick or even hear about marital regrets. Remortgaging to pay off his credit card bill sounds like a marital decision that is now a regret. In other words you agreed to spend joint money on his debt.

However if his current credit card debt is clearly all gambling then you are on solid ground to request it is not shared.

it is important to clarify why judges reject settlement proposals. Their role is to ensure that the agreements aren’t ever going to be disputed. The main grounds for dispute will be because of process and undisclosed information. The judge will want both parties to show their decision to agree to the arrangement is informed and based on expert advice. When they reject a proposal they will direct parties to seek informed and expert advice. In other words to see a solicitor.

It seems an impossible task to decide what is “fair”. He decided to pursue a “hobby job” and he Decided to get into debt by stupid spending and hiding it and spend little on his pension.

we are now both in a position where we could not afford to sell and buy Our own houses suitable for the kids. I can’t and he Definitely can’t.

what a terrible mistake I made all those years ago. The only good thing is the kids.