PIP payments into my bank account

[PocketSand]

I have a mediation appointment next week with just me and the mediator.

I am DWP appointee for DS1 and DS2 and so PIP and ESA are paid into my account to manage on their behalf. They are 18 and 23. STBEX is claiming that this is my really my income and that any 'savings' due to lumpy expenditure are matrimonial assets.

I only receive CA and UC in my own right. But he insists I have savings. My income doesn't even meet my outgoing and my DC are forced to support me from disability benefits to pay bills and food shopping.

They do have savings in accounts in their own names as allowed by DWP.

For full disclosure we have a JBSP mortgage where DS1 is sole proprietor where DS2 and me live. STBEX pays the mortgage. Neither me or DS2 are eligible for rental support and are classed as living with a relative rent free.

STBEX is a higher rate tax payer and has a surplus after mortgage for DS1 and rent on his new house with his new girlfriend of over £1,800 per month.

Are the DS's income really treated as mine? Should I arrange for benefits to be paid directly to them and then get them to set up SO to me to pay the bills or should they be setting up DD to pay bills directly so it's not deemed my income?

Surely the divorce system don't mean it to be so hard and complicated for divorcing parent carers? Or is STBEX just being an arse?

No idea. You might need specialist advice depending on what they are receiving it for, ie if it's possible the money should go direct to them but you have PoA. But are they legally capable of opening a bank accoun? Or even deemed capable of acting/spending on their own behalf now they are adults rather than children? Since they are legally adults should they not be getting extra for food/bills in their own right or do you get any extra in benefits to do that?

Obviously a physical disability will be treated totally different to a learning disability in respect of managing money as an adult so you need to clarify THEIR rights and benefits as adults instead of treating their money as a family pot. I understand why you did it (they were children) but now you need to get a layer of legality over it with PoA, otherwise you could be accused of financial abuse. Get that organised and clarified first before taking on the legalities of divorce. Is there a charity that specialises in what they have that can advise you?

EDIT - apologies, I see you mentioned ESA - that is to help with rent/bills/food/living so you could use that as a family pot but I do think you need better separation from your personal account.

I have POA for DS1. His ESA is for living expenses which I manage. There's nothing left over. I have to have bills in my name and POA because DS1 is not able to manage things on his own behalf.

My question is more about PIP. This is disregarded in some circumstances because it is not means tested. So it's not counted as household income but for disability related expenses.

The problem is STBEX. HE sees PIP as household income. And a matrimonial asset. He wants a share of his son's PIP. Either to count it as income to my household so he doesn't have to pay maintenance or to claim half of saved PIP (saved to pay therapy costs). Why should he have a share of an adults PIP when he doesn't even live with them, provides no care and has a decent income?

I'm so used to hearing his arguments repeated over and over that I have lost sight of what can be reasonably expected.

I would like to know what to expect at mediation.

Of course he shouldn't share in your DS's PIP and of course it shouldn't count as household income. It is literally for the additional costs you incur for your DS.

I can see why he's a STBEX

I wrote a whole post then re-read yours.

Can you clarify who has PIP? If it is only your son then X has no claim on it. It would be equivalent to him demanding half the assets off any lodger you might have. Divorce is between two adults, not the entire household.

With youngster over 18 with severe disabilities it's very complicated. Pip is definitely disregarded. Esa is counted as their household income as its equivalent to uc and reasonably you should be using it for housing, bills and food with whatever is left over to be spent on other things. What I'm not sure about is the housing setup - as your children are over 18 he is not going to be obliged to pay the mortgage long term but as a clean break you should be splitting any matrimonial assets. With the mortgage in your dcs name it's even more complicated.

I think you will need specific advice from a divorce solicitor with experience of adult disabilities and this kind of financial set up. Without the complications from the housing it's basically a case of agreeing a clean break unless their income is significant, courts are not looking at spousal support until incomes are over £120k or so

There are some banks that let you open appointee accounts (more do if you have POA or deputyship). HSBC and Halifax do. The account is your name but as appointee. As it’s a basic bank account and the banks don’t make money from them few banks do them and often have low limits eg HSBC is £5k so above that you would have move into savings. If dc pay you board or rent that would be income for you for Form E and when you list outgoings you would only put your share of food and bills if splitting with dc. You just need usual identify docs and the appointee letter from DWP to open bank account. Post 18 their money should be separate and not mixed with other people.

My recent divorce experience was that PIP (for DC) was taken into account when looking at my overall income. I can appreciate that it seems unfair but both my solicitor, and barrister were clear about it.

So my income included my earnings, DC's PIP and child benefit.

My divorce went to court and as part of this my income (as above) was compared to my income needs, and then the difference between income needs and actual income was treated as the shortfall towards which spousal maintenance was directed.

@Wishitwasstraightforward this is my concern. I will contact DWP to arrange benefit to be paid direct. It is not fair to my adult DC that their benefits are treated as my income because of divorce.

I assume that your DC was over 16 but living in your house?

My DC is 23 and I am living in his house but I don't trust the system to understand the difference.

One of the section 25 factors is "other resources" and these payments may be taken into account if you live off them.

The best thing would be to get a separate bank account for these payments and then a PoA so you can help DC manage it

No, that wouldn't make a difference. The law considers the income, earning capacity, and other financial resources of each party.

If there is a trail of bank statements showing the OP using the money for her living costs then she cannot now claim it is not money for her use by putting it in a separate bank account. Your advice is tantamount to suggesting the OP commits perjury.

Why should he have a share of an adults PIP when he doesn't even live with them, provides no care

He's paying the mortgage so I don't think saying that he provides no care is fair. I'd be very careful. He doesnt need to be paying the mortgage and could stop at any time. Yes it's shit and really unfair but that's the truth of it.

You need to see a solicitor who deals with complex cases like these.

But if it's not her money then it's not her financial resources necessarily for the future. It should be for whomever looks after the son and lives with the son. Just as if the son moved in with someone else the OP couldn't use it for her own living expenses.
I'm not sure that's perjury? Clearly stating the money and whose it is?

He is paying the mortgage for a house owned by his disabled child. The OP has no legal right to live there and no legal obligation to pay mortgage. She is a live in carer. Plenty of people live with new partners and their income / financial resources are not taken into account so I don’t think PIP for adult child would be. A court can’t make an order that your adult child support you from their benefits (they should not be supporting you anyway as this could be considered financial abuse if they can’t consent). If you are just at mediation stage then separate the money now before you do Form E and get benefits paid to DC. It’s totally normal that benefits are paid to parent and then move to child when they become adults. This is not dodgy it’s what should happen. Social care and benefits assessments need each person to be assessed individually so the money needs to be in separate accounts. I would track spending for each child eg in app and keep receipts / bank statements to show what they receive and what they pay for. Your outgoings are your share of utilities and food. You can’t pay ds1 rent as can’t get UC rent support for a house owned by a relative you live with. The court will consider if this arrangement means you are suitably housed which may affect settlement depending how secure the court thinks the arrangement is in future. On behalf of DS1 you need specialist legal advice whether ds1 should be making own claim against Dad to keep paying their mortgage. In some situations the court can order ongoing payments by a parent to an adult child if there are special circumstances.

I said tantamount to perjury. Your basically suggesting she hides money available for her use in a divorce.

The fact is it is a financial resource available to her and should be declared (other examples are a new partner's income or regular help from parents).

I thought new partner income should be declared but new partner didn't have to consent unless court ordered. At least that's what happens in other threads on the subject !
Presumably if OP ceases to live with son and doesnt have his income in her bank account then she wouldn't have to declare his income. She could move out for a short period and say she's not in that arrangement any more. That's not tantamount to perjury that's just change in circumstances.

Just saying there are lots of examples of men doing things to minimise earnjngs for divorce. If legit then why not.

I'm not sure, even when the money is paid into my account and managed on behalf of DC, that the money is a resource available to me. What it practically means is that I don't pay household bills (electric, oil, water, council tax and dog related costs) as my benefits only cover my own food, clothes, optician, car etc. I am provided with a room in my son's house in exchange for care. DS2's PIP is used to pay 50% of household bills so is effectively paid to DS1 not me.

But the finances are managed by me for practical reasons. Even with a POA it is difficult to manage things unless you are the named account holder and when we first moved here I didn't have POA so had no choice but put accounts in my name.

One concern is that PIP is reviewed every 3 years and is not income that can be relied upon. I would not be surprised if DS2's PIP were reduced or even stopped at review due within the next year as the continuation of care needs will be harder to prove now he has started at local university.

DS1's mortgage and STBEX paying it should not be a martial issue IMO. He would still pay the mortgage if I didn't live here. The money he pays is not spousal maintenance to allow me to pay I mortgage on a house I own.

Obviously I have to keep a proportion of DC's PIP to cover maintenance and repair of house, buy furniture, white goods etc and have made sure that this is now in saving accounts in their names but it used to be in accounts in my name because I was the person arranging the work and paying the tradespeople etc..

STBEX thinks this was/ is really my money that I have spent or put in DC accounts to hide it from him. I'm worried he'll pour over my accounts to try and find evidence that I am hiding money even though he knows that I have no income other than benefits and gifted what was left of my inheritance to DS1 as house deposit. I fear he will be angry and threaten to stop paying DS1's mortgage.

DS2 should be eligible for UC in his own right PIP is for his care and support needs. UC for living costs. So if you are getting the child element and disabled child premium on UC then his living costs are already accounted for. If you are not getting any child related benefits for DS2 he needs to make a Uc claim. It will require a bit of help from an advice agency like Citizens advice. Your household is complex but each individual adult should have their own income and if they can't work need to ensure they are claiming the relevant benefits.

On the financial separation put it all in front of a judge to decide but I can see no reasonable way a judge could rule that your son's PIP or any benefit claimed for him is to be shared with your ex husband for his personal use.

@FlemCandango DS2 is a full time student and 18 so not entitled to UC in own right and not counted for my UC.

I think I have been confusing income considered in light of spousal maintenance (ie all members of the households of both parties including adult DC and new partners) and income calculation for the purpose of splitting assets. I'm assuming that savings in DC accounts are not matrimonial assets.

There is no matrimonial property or other assets to split - just STBEX DB pension. He incorrectly thought that I had savings that would also be split because the money was paid into my account before being transferred to DC saving accounts.

The house costs should be paid by DS1 from their account. House repairs are for DS1 and STBXH as it’s not your house. Bills should be split eg food bill 3 ways. I know it seems a lot of work to separate it but it does protect you and online banking means people can send payments to each other instantly. Make sure you are getting all the council tax discounts. I get 50% deduction because DC is ‘severally mentally impaired’. I do think your DS1 needs legal advice if they can get a court order for STBXH to keep paying mortgage. You are right this is not spousal maintenance but effectively child maintenance. You could use DS1 savings for legal advice for DS1. When you do Form E officially it just asks for info at that time so it won’t matter how things were organised before. It’s not like you are hiding your savings in a child’s account.