Mental health & what counts as risk to kids

[TheBigDee]

My Dh doesn't want to split. I worry a great deal about the kids being left with him. I got a little advice on another thread about this but wanted to understand it a bit more. My H id quite vulnerable and unpredictable. He doesn't pay towards anything anymore (another thread) which i can sort out - but i can't get over the kids safety not being guaranteed.

I do leave the kids with him now for short periods - if i go to shop or back a little later from work - but at the moment we are in limbo - he still thinks we are working on our marriage and he is affectionate to kids, he is trying to keep it together. however - reaons i am worried

• Can get very angry. Only occassionally. Shouted at me so much in front of the kids they hid under the table when they next saw him.
• has phsyical and verbal tics (says 'i hate myself' 'i do drugs' 'you're a bad person') out loud and often (20 times a day).
• doesn't sleep well. find him up at 3am. then other times he doesn't wake despite a child crying
• often seems very distracted. pained look on his face. doesn't listen to me or them.
• falls asleep during the day
• goes on long drives
• quite slow to respond to anything - for example if kid picked up a bread knife he woudl turn to me to tell me rather than stand up himself.

he has never done anythign to the kids directly, other than get v frustrated, and i've told him to leave room.

my gut is telling me all of the above will get a lot, lot worse when we split, and that he may do something to hurt himself one day.

if he has a bad day (stuck in traffic or said something stupid to a stranger) - all of the above gets a lot worse for a day or so - so can't imagine what will the impact be of a divorce he doesn't want.

i don't think he would ever do anything directly to the children but them living alone with a man like this surely isn't great?

i called GP who told me all of these are very common symptoms and i'd be surprised how mnay people live with these all day every day of their lives and basically telling me it's all ok.

i understand if i think he's a risk to kids then i have to go to court. but would any of the above be deemed relevant in assessing their safety. solicitor told me to call police and record it - but it's not a crime to be mentally unwell.

Anyone? Anyone have any experience of divorcing a mentally unwell man?

Does he have a diagnosis?

Of all the things you have listed, a lot don't necessarily impact the children.

Him being angry and shouting by at them and scaring them is obviously not ok. Is this repeatedly or a one off? Is it linked to his mental illness because honestly plenty of people without mental illness have shouted at their kids.

The being awake in the night and sleeping in the day - does this impact the children? So are they under his sole charge during the day and him falling asleep means they are unsupervised and in danger? A lot depends on the age of the kids here as well - a two year old should be supervised but a nine year old can cope.

The tics are presumably a symptom of his illness. The children will grow to understand (as they would if you were together) that they are something that he presumably cannot control and they will learn to ignore them.

No diagnosis as such. GP said he's been living with "anxiety his whole life" and prescribed antidepressants which should reduce the invasive thoughts and tics but he has refused to take them. He has got v angry in front of kids maybe 6 times in 6 months. The kids are pre school age. I csnt risk him not being present or aware of his surroundings.

Thank you for your reply. I do get how it doesn't directly impact kids maybe but it's v worrying

Ok.

So no diagnosis.

Some of what you describe sounds like mental illness - doctor says he's anxious, he has intrusive thoughts and tics.

Some of what you describe sounds like he is struggling (polite version) with pre-school kids.

In the court system, if you split and he doesn't want custody then the courts won't make him look after them. So if he doesn't want custody you are fine.

If he does, then because there is evidence that it is important for children to maintain a connection with their parents then the evidence of harm to children has to be pretty high before he will be prevented from having custody.

(I have personal opinions on this but I'm saying how it is).

Parents who have physically abused their children will often get contact centre custody where they can see their children under supervision. The courts are very very reluctant to deny contact to parents and what you have described wouldn't come anywhere near what they would see as being needed.

From the courts point of view he has no diagnosis and is therefore not mentally ill. His behaviour wouldn't meet the requirements for contact centre much less denying any contact at all.

That's actually quite worrying if he is saying voices in head etc, sleeping not sleeping all those strange patterns. Even more worrying not taking medication to control these things. Sadly a few members of my rather large family suffer from varying mental health problems and the one who had the voices before medication actually ended up in a special hospital for several months as he did put my 2 cousins at very great risk one day. Tbh they were lucky they didn't get killed that day. Anyway my uncle was mortified months later when he realised what he had done but at the time of it happening he had no clue he was putting anyone in danger. That was 4 years ago and now he is on daily meds and tbh probably saved his marriage aswell and the best uncle I've known him to be all my life probably

@Octavia64 yes, i don't want to try to stop him having his kids - definitely not. he can be very loving to them and they love him. but i manage daily life, i am the main carer, they are attached to me. if i leave the room, they follow me round the house rather than be with him alone.

he is only half listening most of the time. it's like having a silent observer in our family home, who has bursts of being loving and fun, and then goes back to staring, ticking, or playing the same game on his phone

what i'm hoping is that i have the evidence that it wouldn't be best for the kids to have 5050. they are very young. i can afford the family home without him. i would like to suggest he has them 2/3 times a week for tea/trips/park, buidling up to one overnight, two nights, etc. but that his MH problems is evidence that he wouldn't cope with 5050 and neither would our kids. any chance of that do you think?

@Ladyj84 he promises me there are no voices in his head. he says he isn't talking to anyone. but over this weekend, he was saying 'i hate myself' maybe 5 - 10 times an hour. i really am trying to be supportive but it's a very difficult environment .

My advice is try your best to supervise the contact without him knowing that's what you are doing. My abusive ex actually hurt our child it's why I left him and I offered supervised he fought me through court and set social services on me I couldn't prove the abuse and he got unsupervised contact. A lot more contact than he would have wanted otherwise. You cannot rely on a court to protect vulnerable children

@PurpleBugz "you cannot rely on a court to protect vulnerable children" - exactly that. that is what i fear, and it is the only reaons i haven't left yet. it's all very well people saying "better to have one happy home 50% of the time" or "you need to protect your children" (things people have said to me on other threads) - but i feel like splitting actually means the exact opposite of protecting my children!

how did they expect you to prove abuse? i'm so sorry what you're going through. how is it now? does he have 5050?

Of course it directly impacts the children.

This will have a huge impact on your children you are doing them more damage staying together.

@Thegoodbadandugly how? as @Octavia64 says - what i've described is nowhere near the threshold for preventing/reducing contact - so how is staying together damaging them more than him having them alone for possibly 50% of the time?

Jesus this is a bad situation. The kids follow you about as they don’t feel safe on their own with him.

Have you talked to a family solicitor? Tbey maybe able to offer some legal advice.

IME the family court often dont put the welfare of the kids first and are hell bent on 50/50 regardless if it’s in the kids best interest or not. Plus a lot of men go for 50/50’to avoid paying CM.

A friend of mine was put through hoops in family court and was ordered to do all kinds of psychological assessments- completely baseless- but maybe they could order the same for your DH?

Id seek legal advice first to see where you stand

@TheBigDee
I'm lucky that once we had the court order it actually meant he couldn't play his games anymore as I was able to say we will stick to the court order. He never wanted contact just wanted to punish me. There was a couple horrible years but often his family did the childcare for him. Now he's got a new partner who does everything and my kids are safe.

I do find it infuriates me people have so much faith in our family court system. People always spout how you have to leave to protect the kids but the reality for many is when you stay you do all the childcare and the kids only witness it but when you leave the kids become the target. Obviously if you can leave and protect your kids that's always best but the court system thinks contact with inadequate fathers is best. Even with proven abuse to the mother contact idle regularly ordered because it wasn't towards the kids.

People who are not familiar with the court system often believe that if you leave someone who is emotionally or otherwise abusive that the courts will protect you and the children.

This is not the case.

One of the reasons many women stay with abusive men is because they believe they can control the impact of the abuse on their children. Sometimes this is true and sometimes it isn't.

Of what you have said, most of it falls under the heading of " not great parenting but not actual abuse". Him being awake late in the night isn't abuse. Him having verbal and physical tics isn't abuse (and just as an aside, medication may not control these. Not all tics can be stopped).

Him falling asleep when he's looking after young children isn't good. But at worst it's neglect rather than active abuse. (And honestly I have done this myself when I've been ill).

The genuinely bad bits are him shouting at the children.

So if you want to improve things, personally I'd try parenting classes or counselling first. You can always split afterwards, but at least he might improve as a parent.

@Octavia64 he is not shouting at the kids, but shouting at me in front of them and doens't stop. caling me a stupid fucking cunt, a thick bitch. this has happened when i have pushed about getting him help for the other stuff. he didn't stop when my youngest was sobbing and i couldn't get away from him as he was following me round the house. i have suggetsed counselling many times. he is saying we can't afford it now.

the tics aren't abusive - no. but surely saying 'i hate myself' out loud 10 x an hour all day is causing them harm?

he may well only be falling asleep becaues i am there. i don't know if he would do it if i wasn't there.

Your children are afraid to be in the same room as him, I'm sorry I would be in contact with someone from domestic violence I would take those children and move as far away as possible where he can't find you.

If you didn’t suggest contact do you think that he would pro actively arrange it? Sounds like possibly no, he would sit somewhere in his own world.

@Thegoodbadandugly you would run away with your children? he could go to the police to say I've kidnapped my own kids and i could lose them forever. you can't disappear with your kids without repercussions. I would love to do that but i have to be pragmatic and work within the systems and law - otherwise my kids could suffer a great deal more.

Him calling you names is awful.

Short term if you know that doing X will trigger him calling you names then don't do it.

It may be worth thinking about how you can navigate through this to get what you want - which is him not shouting at you.

Firstly is there a room in your house where you can go in and lock the door so you can get away from him when he is doing this? Ideally not a bathroom but use the bathroom if necessary.

Failing that, if he begins shouting at you like that then can you take the kids and go out to a coffee shop while he calms down? Again, this will keep you safe.

You might also find it helpful to arrange a possible place to stay with a friend if he is being shouty.

Next time he does it try saying to him that it is not acceptable and that you are going to give him some time on his own and take the children out so he can calm down. Then follow up later (much later) when he is calm by saying that you would like to go to counselling to discuss the name calling.

Basically making clear that you do not think it's ok and will physically leave (or lock yourself in the bathroom) as you don't think it's acceptable behaviour.

He may be more amenable to changing his behaviour if you make much more clear that it is not acceptable in this way. If not, then at least he will know that you are not ok with it and it may help open discussions when you do leave.

@Octavia64 yes, that is all really helpful advice. he in denial about how angry he can be. he cries a lot but it's always about him rather than impact on kids.

given your knowledge of family court - sounds like your advice is to stay and manage it more effectively, rather than leave?

Hi OP, what you describe is really scary and his behaviour is abusive. You are doing the right thing getting away from him. I understand that you want to stay within the law but the law does allow you to remove your children if you think they are unsafe (in fact, in some circumstances you can be breaking the law by not seeking help although I'm not suggesting at all that you are in this category). All the women getting their kids away from dangerous men are not "kidnapping" them. They do sound unsafe, even if he's largely directing his behaviour at you rather than them. It also sounds as if they know they are unsafe.

Have you spoken to Women's Aid? They could give you some advice and comfort on this.

I'm sorry if this seems dramatic but it sounds as if his abusive behaviour has become normalised for you and perhaps you are not seeing the wood for the trees. Do you have a solicitor and have you made them fully aware of the extent of the abuse? It sounds a bit as if you are minimising it because you think it is rooted in his MH issues, and it might be, but it is no less harmful for that and you are no less unsafe.

Whatever the GP said, his behaviour is not "normal". Did you really tell the GP that he follows you round the house shouting that you are a thick bitch and a cunt and the GP said it was ok? They should have been raising alarms not reassuring you. Please get some proper advice and get yourself and your children away from him.

I do find it infuriates me people have so much faith in our family court system. People always spout how you have to leave to protect the kids but the reality for many is when you stay you do all the childcare and the kids only witness it but when you leave the kids become the target. Obviously if you can leave and protect your kids that's always best but the court system thinks contact with inadequate fathers is best. Even with proven abuse to the mother contact idle regularly ordered because it wasn't towards the kids."
Yes there's a lot of naivety on here about court outcomes in cases involving DV. especially so where the abuse is hard to prove things like emotional abuse, being screamed at, being afraid. All the take your kids and run, he won't want contact, go to court to stop contact type posts, are so far from the reality.

By the time I finally left and made it stick my eldest was 10, she has a phone, she has mentally health supports in place and she is finally old enough to be heard if we had to go to court. She's fine going to her Dad's house for 2 nights a week now at 6 she would have been terrified to be in a house with him without me. She's finally able to speak to someone other than me about it all, we finally have proof. I absolutely stayed too long, but just take your kid and go type advice when it's your word against there's is very unrealistic. You dont get to chose if they have contact, the court needs to believe you. I wish it was that simple as leave and protect them.

Would he do a parenting course with you OP? Just thinking on PPs suggestion, would that be something he'd do? Would he go for 50/50 if you separated? If he'd be happy to just see them a day on the weekend and one or two afternoons a week I would leave. Im so sorry you and your DC are being treated this way by someone who is supposed to love, cherish and.protect you. It's such a horrible thing to go through.

So my personal advice:

If you think at any point he is going to physically harm you or the children tell him you will phone the police. If that doesn't stop him phone them immediately.

If he is "just" shouty I would start laying groundwork for what will either be you leaving or him working on himself. Both of those will be easier if he admits he has problems.

So if he gets shouty and calls you names follow my advice above. That will make clear to him you consider this a problem.

Then after the incident, when you return from the coffee shop/bathroom/your friends ask if you can schedule a conversation about it.

You might want to go out and have the conversation in public (coffee shop) as it will constrain his behaviour.

You can say that you aren't ok with his behaviour and it's scaring his children. You can ask him to come to counselling or parenting classes with you. You can state you are not happy with the current way he is behaving,

What this means is that he knows you aren't ok with it. So he might agree to counselling or similar. Or he might try to control himself more. But either way it lays the groundwork - he knows you are not happy.

Then if it happens again, you do exactly the same thing except in the conversation afterwards you say that you are considering divorce as a result.

So he is clear that his behaviour isn't acceptable to you and he knows WHY you are considering divorce.

It means that if you do leave, there's a track record of what has been going on and he is much less likely to feel like it has come out of the blue and be physically abusive.

However, you are the person in this situation, you know what he is like and how far you can go. If you think my advice won't work - don't do it.

Yes there's a lot of naivety on here about court outcomes in cases involving DV. especially so where the abuse is hard to prove things like emotional abuse, being screamed at, being afraid. All the take your kids and run, he won't want contact, go to court to stop contact type posts, are so far from the reality.

Hmm, mixed feelings about this. I agree that the court system isn't fit for purpose when it comes to DV. However I also think that staying with a dangerous man to avoid it is the wrong approach- OP can't ensure her children's safety is she's not there but she also can't ensure their safety if she is there- they are already being subjected to abusive behaviour.

It's a terrible situation but I don't think those of us advocating getting out are being naive. For a lot of us it's the exact opposite, personal experience of staying too long.

@GinaCoca he doesnt scare me. He is very vulnerable. Unpredictable and barely coping with daily life. The angry outbursts are infrequent and only a response to me pushing him to get help. I'm not excusing him. Just trying to paint a picture. He would never directly hurt one of the children but his very poor mental health seems to make him v self involved with little concern for the impact on those around him.

If I had more trust in the system putting my kids safety and wellbeing first rather than his rights as their dad - I would have left a long time ago.

I do understand what you're saying though. Staying longer only makes things harder.

Thank you for all your help