What do you think is a reasonable split?

[JoolyWumper]

Together for 30 years, married 20, 3 kids secondary age, eldest will turn 18 this year. We are both 50y.

H has been an absolute arsehole to me for some years now - out all the time drinking, never contributing helpwise at home for any admin, DIY, nothing, often verbally abusive and emotionally neglectful.

I did not stop working when kids born as I'm self employed and throughout we have either earned the same amount or I've been the higher earner. We both over higher tax payers. He has not saved anything, absolute minimal pension, whereas I have built up savings. He has basically pissed away all his money, but at least has not racked up debts and gambling is minimal.
During the last year our fortunes have changed and my earnings were lower than his in the last tax year, for the first time ever. His earnings are stable and likely to rise, whereas mine are very unpredictable.

I've been really struggling to juggle all the mental load, house, keep on earning and try to deal with his bad tempers/behaviour, which I had assumed were due to depression, drink etc.. Eventually this took its toll on me and I've been referred for mental health. I decided to tell him enough is enough, but surprise surprise when I broached the conversation he explains that he's been behaving like that because there is someone else! And has been for a long time apparently.

I filed for divorce online earlier this week and friends advised me to see a solicitor straight away regarding finance, but it was essentially a waste of time. She told me that she can't advise me anything without us filling in form E, but that it will be cheaper for us to decide amicably. While I understand this, I feel like I need some guidance about what to set out in an amicable agreement, from those who are or have been through similar!

I know an agreement has to start at 50:50. I have personally saved approx 60k to his nothing (his pension is literally going to be about £1000 a year or something, he only started paying in around 6 years ago and contributes the minimum). The solicitor acknowledged that while it's grossly unfair, he might well be entitled to my half of that. I want to keep as much as possible, obviously!! We have about £350k equity and another £240k left to pay.

She also mentioned that pensions are dealt with separately, but didn't clarify - does that mean not to include them in a draft order?

I will be staying in the family home with the kids. I'm looking into mesher orders and deferred charges, but we have not discussed this yet. He is looking for a flat (currently couch surfing) and will not be doing any formal child care. I assume he will dutifully turn up from time to time but they don't need babysitting and he's not particularly interested in their day to day lives. He just likes the fun bits - holidays, football etc.

So, at the moment his wage still goes into our joint account and that will cover the mortgage bills etc. He also spends from this account. My income goes into my business account, I contribute from there to the joint, but my personal spending (which is about 1/5 of his) is from my own account.
I realise (late to the party I know!) that if I continue to save I am basically losing a large chunk to him.

I understand that even if we draft a financial order ourselves, we'll still need a solicitor to finalise it - am I correct on that? If so, will the solicitor be looking at my statements at that point to see how much money I have? (Bearing in mind I've engaged her, and H says he isn't going to get his own).
I showed her my statements this week, but I anticipate that in 20 weeks-ish time when the consent comes through I will have (hopefully) been able to save some more. I would obviously prefer at this point for any further income I get between now and then to be just for me. If I will have to present statements at that point, would it be better (for me) to have spent it on myself or things for the house/kids as in that case he's paying half, rather than stealing half?!

Secondly, what sort of ratio would be normal in these circumstances, and how does a person even arrive at a ratio? Clearly 50:50 isn't fair if I have the kids, but how would you decide between say 60:40 or even 80:20, as the solicitor mentioned both of these as something to consider. I have paid 30k more than him towards the mortgage for example. I think he will be fair and reasonable as long as I can justify what I'm asking. (Perhaps wishful thinking).

If anyone has any links to websites etc. that can help me think that through that would be awesome. Or if anyone can share what sort of ratio they were successful with, that would be helpful too.

Many thanks!!

I’m not sure you paying 30k more towards the mortgage will be taken into account. In terms of the assets, is it just:
The family home.
The 60k that you have in savings.
Do you have a pension, I know you mention your ex only has a small pension but what about yours?
Is he a high earner who can afford to house himself whilst his equity in the family home remains inaccessible due to a mesher order? Is he going to agree to continue paying towards the mortgage for a house he isn’t living in and could you afford to pay it on your own ? He sounds like a useless husband and father judging by your post but that won’t be relevant to the financial split.

Yeah I know the court wouldn't if it was only up to them, but he might if we can agree to something ourselves. Is a court likely to overrule that, do you think?

Yes I have a private pension - would be just about enough to live comfortably on, unless I lose half of it. 60k is what I have in my pension + what I overpaid the mortgage plus a few grand in ISAs. We also have joint savings which are definitely 50:50 c. 55k

He doesn't want to buy a house. I think he will move abroad when the kids are a bit older. His salary is easy enough to rent a bachelor pad. His philosophy is that money is to spend on having a good time and has no interest in investing or saving for retirement.

I haven't discussed how he will contribute to the mortgage, but as far as I can see it's win-win for him. If he stops contributing he's got a nice nest-egg when the house eventually gets sold, if he contributes the egg gets bigger.

Useless absolutely!! But somehow very smart when I look at what he's going to walk away with after doing almost nothing more than providing the sperm!!!

I believe a judge can refuse to sign the consent order if it doesn’t appear fair eg is heavily weighted in one parties favour. Does the solicitor you spoke to specialise in family law? I’d have thought they could have at least given you a broad idea of what you should reasonably ask for in the divorce when trying to reach an agreement between the two of you.

I’m a family law solicitor and I’m surprised your solicitor couldn’t give you more useful information if you broadly understood the financial position (it’s more limited if my client doesn’t know their spouse’s financial position).

departure from equality needs to be justified solely on a needs basis, eg if one party has a lower mortgage capacity or needs a larger home for the main home for the children.

the below link is good reading to understand finances on divorce, especially the case studies at the end:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/fjc-financial-needs-april-16-final.pdf

Long marriage, similar earnings throughout (. +/- at times) most likely a court if it got that far would be 50:50

this is what I was advised for mine. You’re not looking at material deviation

he won’t be ordered to pay the mortgage k doubt and that won’t impacts share. If you are awarded mesher ( and these are last resorts so that might be unlikely too) you will be expected to pay the mortgage and bills and his equity is simply deferred

the 30k you paid extra won’t count for anything

he absolutely will be entitled to a share of your pension.

I suspect you'll end up splitting very close to 50:50.

The fact that you've saved for a pension, and he hasn't, isn't really relevant - it's a long marriage, your assets are joint, regardless of who accumulated what.

If he's not interested in your pension, great, but you'll likely have to offset its value with a greater share of the savings or more equity.

Your situation is a lot like mine. I’m in family home paying everything. He gives me £320 for one teenager and that’s it. We earn about the same. We split savings exactly, when I have to sell the home he’ll get his share and also the equity I’ve paid off since he left. I gave him a bit of money to put down on flat and he took what he needed out of the house. He does no child care whatsoever. He has someone else. We’re 50, married 20 years.

despite him being kind of the sane as your ex, I don’t feel any animosity towards him. I feel grateful I am in the situation where I can stay in my lovely house, with my son and dog, and that I have a job that allows me to pays the bills independently of him.

I empathised with him in that he’s paying loads on rent and I know he doesn’t have any money to give me. Can’t get blood from a stone.

he has more pension and in the consent order I drew up we took into account his pension value and we agreed I’d take extra savings to make up for the cash value of the pension.

I could have probably made a fuss based on the fact I’m at home looking after DCs and dog but I don’t think it would have been worth it. We had 60k savings too but this was saved jointly, and so I didn’t feel it was mine.

if things were the other way around I don’t think anyone would say he was entitled to the savings. I think many men must save and think their wives are spending all their hard earned money but it would not be seen as fair if they got to keep all the savings in a breakup. Often one person is more frugal in a relationship than the other.

I’d just split 50/50 and make sure you are getting what you need from him to stay in the house and maintain your family. Get a cash value for the pension and invest that in your own.

Ok, thanks. Bugger.

I think what I'm still unclear on though is whether a court will overrule something we decide ourselves. He is a useless f*kwit but I think he feels guilty. He knows that he's spent more and done less, and is also the one breaking us up, and I think he will will agree to a split in my favour.

My thinking is that if we can come to an agreement together without a solicitor, the court is likely to agree to it, as long as it's not blatantly unfair - is that right? If they are just going to make a decision anyway, what would be the point of couples trying to sort it out themselves? Sorry if I am confused - very new to all this!

Thank you for this. She would not give any general advice at all - she said that we can work it out ourselves, or we (I) can go to her after the conditional order to ask her to do it, in which case I would need all his paperwork (I don't have access to his pensions since they stopped doing paper statements a couple of years ago, so I just extrapolated from the old statements).

Or the other option she suggested was mediation. It was like getting blood from a stone trying to get any advice at all from her. It wasn't a free consultation and the practice claims to specialise in family law.

I walked away thinking I have no use for a solicitor if this is what it's like - she just repeated things I'd already found out online or gave non-committal answers.

I'll check out your link, thanks.

This link is amazing. Printing it all off to read in bed! Thank you so much!👌

We used

amicable.io

And they were very good.

No solictors required.

We did meet up and have a number of bargaining sessions beforehand.

The advice we were given was that a judge might refuse if the distribution of assets was obviously unfair and or might leave the children unhoused etc.

We were roughly 50:50.

I think a real stumbling block for you may be your capacity to take over the mortgage. I don’t think you are likely to get sign off on an order where you stay in the house and he stays on and contributes to the mortgage. He is likely to be advised firmly against that if he gets legal advice because it will probably prevent him buying himself, he could be left having to pay rent, child maintenance and mortgage which may be unaffordable, it can be difficult to make the other party sell / pay out when the mesher order comes to an end and is not something he needs to agree in that it is very unlikely a court would order it. Never say never but mesher orders are rare anyway and even more so in those circumstances.

That means you probably need to be able to take over the mortgage alone. You should check if you would pass affordability for that - possibly tricky as a self-employed person?

Even if you can get a £240k mortgage alone and can afford to pay it that would leave him with very little in liquid assets unless he takes more of the joint savings. Is he really going to be happy walking away with £25k and some equity in a house he can’t access even if he feels guilty?

If you do go down the mesher order route I would expect a 50-50 split or closer to it to be more likely because there isn’t the justification of needing more equity to house the children - you have access to the equity anyway for the period you need it.,

The solicitor you saw sounds unhelpful though. Most would give you a stronger steer on what to expect though do be aware that they want you as a client and may give a somewhat optimistic view on initial meeting.

You can draft your own consent order but it’s not that easy if it involves mesher orders or anything non-standard.

For what it’s worth I have stayed in the family home with legal charge to my ex but he is a very high earner, I could take over the mortgage, we agreed it and he still left with over £100k cash so could buy a suitable property if he wanted to.

The court won’t allow an agreement that they see as unfair to either party especially if no solicitors have been involved. I’d suggest reading up as much as possible and then speak to another solicitor.

this is very good https://www.advicenow.org.uk/divorce-and-separation

you will need all your financial info available including all assets and debts, pension values, expected living costs for when you have divorced, property prices for suitable accommodation eg a 3 bed house as only 2 of your children will soon be under 18.

Pension pots usually equalised on divorce, or can be uneven if one person then has more house equity for example, however it’s quite complicated as a £ in pension pot is not worth the same as a £ cash so you’d need to get a pension actuary to look at future values of the pensions and work out an equivalent in available cash. Getting an actuary can be costly. My ex and I had pensions in the same scheme so was easy to compare but different types of pension have different values so need more looking into by a professional.
I’m not sure how housing need is decided if one parent does not want the children at all and I don’t know if there is still allowance made for it to be possible house wise for both parties to have space for the children. He may say he wishes to have the children more often and then his accommodation needs would be greater than just a bachelor pad.

The court can and will bring you to face KC if it is deemed not a fair settlement, even if agreed between yourselves. This happened to me and the judge very reluctantly signed off.

Proceed with caution is what I would advise.