How are ‘needs’ established

[Mumof3confused]

I find the concept of ‘need’ difficult to get my head round. How are ‘needs’ established at FDR/Final hearings?

In our case:

He has a house, a car (gifted), an affordable mortgage, £55k salary + excellent pension benefits. No debts (apart from £12k ‘loan’ from parents post separation - no supporting documentation).

She has a house, a car (company car), affordable mortgage, self employed in an industry which is struggling in current climate. Averaging equivalent of £25k currently and for the foreseeable, struggling to make ends meet. This is down from £50k ish last couple of years, previously less. No pension. £20k debt (spent on setting up new home - ie rent whilst also contributing to mortgage on FMH, buying kids furniture etc).

Savings £50k. Pensions split as determined by pensions actuary. Children looked after 50:50.

How are the ‘needs’ likely to play out and how might the £50k get divided?

She says her needs are greater because of their income disparity, he is already housed and has everything he needs. She needs her debts paid off and some savings to get her through current crisis re work.

He says she was earning double and can do so again. He wants all of the savings (the reasoning for this is unclear).

Is she looking at changing her job then?

In my experience it depends on how good your lawyer is. Mine gave me a whole load of waffle about needs and equivalent lifestyles in the beginning, but got me sod all in reality.

In my experience (by my sisters divorce) the pensions were split 50/50 and she had to give over half the savings as he decided to give up his job 6 months before the divorce went through. Judge didn't care that he was perfectly able to earn 40k a year up until the divorce. He wasn't (well he was hiding it) earning anything at the point of divorce so he got more. It's a fucking joke imo

@WhereIsBebèsChambre well, retraining takes time, the hope is that the industry will pick up and she is also working on building her own business. She is not looking for spousal maintenance but more of the savings to pay off debts and tide her over, I think it might be called capitalised spousal maintenance.

He doesn’t ‘need’ it, or does he…?

@Plankingplanks it sounds like your sisters ex got half? So how did he get more?

I didn't make that very clear did I? He got 75% of savings, kept his own pension and took half of hers!

@Plankingplanks This is quite frightening as I am in a similar situation (husband not working or earning very little by choice). Did they have any children and if yes, are they sharing their time 50/50 between both parents. Just wondering if this has any impact.

@Plankingplanks that doesn’t sound great if he’s simply chose not to work. If the sums were large she may have a case to appeal based on the fact that he lied if she can prove that he was earning when he said he wasn’t.

In my case the industry is in free fall with 75% of freelancers out of work (according to most recent data). Complicated also by the fact that ex has been harassing and intimidating me to the point that I’ve had to call police, apply for non-molestation order and been put on SSRI’s by GP. Not exactly easy to get back up on your feet when you’re faced with continued abuse.

There won't be any sort of spousal maintenance at £55k, capitalised or otherwise.

Yeah me too. They will prob just tell you to carry on with what you both have and a clean break. Will say similar debts and both employed and suitably housed. The 50/50 childcare will support this too. No one is likely to get anymore than they have... i never and im the 100% parent.

Almost certainly a clean break order.

Both housing needs met
Both transport needs met
Neither has significant debt (marital, pre break up)
Both in employment with similar earning potential

By going to court you will lose a lot more than you could ever gain, through solicitor fees, etc.

Any solicitor telling you otherwise is out to milk you. Go to mediation. Agree a roughly 50/50 split of assets, savings and pensions and get it done. Onwards and upwards.

50/50, clean break. Don’t waste of the savings on lawyers, there’s no case here.

‘Needs’ aren’t designed to make both lifestyles equal.

Most likely for the £ involved she’ll simply be told to increase her on earnings. There won’t be a case for spousal, capitalised or otherwise

He is the one pushing it through the courts. He’s been offered more than 50% of remaining assets but has rejected this.

@Loverofoxbowlakes are you saying 50:50 savings split, without consideration for one spouse earning less than half of the other (through no fault of their own)? Currently on Universal Credit due to income being just £1500pm. He claims Child Benefit for all three children but does not contribute to uniform, shoes, winter coats etc.

@Crossinsomekindaline done mediation. Made offer which the mediator said was generous.this was rejected.

@millymollymoomoo so split savings 50/50 and with no jobs available how is she supposed to ‘just earn more’? Do the courts have any understanding for people whose industry has more or less disappeared post-covid/ due to current cost of living crisis? When the job is specialised, it’s not as easy as just going out to get another job…

From experience all assets/debts would be pooled and then the remainder split 50/50.

I know you have mentioned pensions and savings, but is there any equity in the house? Has everything been taken into consideration?

If you can’t earn more, then you have to spend less.

@MrsRuldolph the FMH was sold and proceeds split 50:50 with remaining £50k held back.

@ElevenSeven are you saying that this is what a judge would say? Nothing is spent on anything other than mortgage, bills, food and essential clothes for the children. Income not enough to cover this. He claims Child Benefit for all three (sacrifices additional salary to pension, to avoid repaying CB). Does not contribute towards essential costs.

Going to court is always a risk and that’s why it is generally avoided unless there is a lot to gain. That being said I always remember a court official saying that when you are in court and hear all the evidence and how it is put you will understand a verdict.

At the time of split it looks like the two split the equity which seems fair enough if they were earning the same. Pensions will be split and the savings should be split.

Both have taken on debt post separation and that is there’s to deal with.

The question of income disparity is probably erroneous here as they are both housed. And, the incomes don’t tell the full story. The ex husband will be paying a lot in tax, NI and pension. His take home pay will be low £3k per month.

The ex wife isn’t going to be paying much in tax, NI or pension. And the question is whether she is claiming benefits which would supplement that income. It would be useful to know what her income in total looks like each month.

This shouldn’t be in court. Just split the savings and equalise the pension. Forget about the debt.

My advice would be to claim benefits and check out new fields of work. I don’t see much improvement in economy for a long time to come.

Thanks @LemonTT it is he who is insisting on court, next stop final hearing.

His take-home pay is roughly £3800 including child benefit (plus pension contributions of £700), her post-tax income with UC is currently £2100 with pension contributions to come out of her earned income, which the FDR judge commenting that this is very relevant, too.

I should add that at the FDR there were lies and omissions (by exH) which resulted in the session being pointless as the judge couldn’t get a full view of the case.

Why is he claiming the child benefit for all 3 children? She should claim this or at least for 1 or 2 as this could increase her UC. Not the question I know but might help financially

@Namerequired he’s refusing to sign over any of the CB

If parents dispute who should claim child benefit, I understand HMRC can consider the case looking at issues such as whose address is used for the GP, who looks after the child when ill etc. Mostly child benefit is claimed by the mother. Why was it decided he would be the claimant? What about pension sharing?

Thanks @LadyLapsang he just claimed it, to be honest I didn’t know what it was until years down the line and found out he had been claiming all along. They are registered at my address with GP, schools etc.

We have a pensions report which has been prepared by a pensions expert.