Holiday abroad permission

Nimbus1999 · 2023-11-27T11:48:01+00:00

I booked a week long holiday in half term 2024. At the time, their Dad saw them 2/14 nights and didn’t help with childcare in the holidays. That has recently increased to 7/14. He is now kicking up a fuss that I didn’t get his written permission before booking the flights and that he won’t give me a permission letter. I told him I’d booked a holiday and gave him the dates but in truth, I didn’t specifically say it was abroad. Has anyone been in this situation? I know I can apply to court if need be. But what a nightmare. How do you organise holidays? Do you always phone and agree before booking even if on your time? I guess in the back of my mind, I was worried he was going to kick off and say no. What agreements do you have in place for this?

Original poster

Nimbus1999 · 27/11/2023 12:08

When I booked it, the holiday would have been over 1 of his nights. The children will go to him 24 hours later than normal. I’ve suggested we put something in the consent order going forward but just worried about this time.

OP posts:

LemonTT · 27/11/2023 12:35

One solution is to de-escalate the situation. I don’t know the context or what type of person he is. But people get very sensitive and uptight in divorces or separations. This could be why he has climbed up his ladder on this particular issue.

If you chose this route then acknowledge what his concern is and why it is valid. In all fairness you should have discussed this with him and got his agreement. Even when it was only one night that at issue. When the arrangements changed this should have been discussed again even if the holiday couldn’t be changed. You are basically having the children for an entire school holiday. Whether or not this is something you can accommodate going forward is something you need to agree.

I don’t know if you used the same language with him as you did in your post but it was probably going to wind him up. Telling is different from asking and you always needed his agreement. It is not going to make him feel more empowered as a parent if you say you will go to court and get approval. This is counter parenting on both parts but in this particular situation you caused it.

I would acknowledge why he is annoyed, apologise and then ask what he would see as being an equivalent opportunity to have quality time with the children. Then get some mediation to sort out how you will co parent to avoid this in the future.

Floofydawg · 27/11/2023 12:48

I've been divorced for many years and never needed permission from the ex to take my own child abroad.

NorthernSpirit · 27/11/2023 14:11

LemonTT · 27/11/2023 12:35

One solution is to de-escalate the situation. I don’t know the context or what type of person he is. But people get very sensitive and uptight in divorces or separations. This could be why he has climbed up his ladder on this particular issue.

If you chose this route then acknowledge what his concern is and why it is valid. In all fairness you should have discussed this with him and got his agreement. Even when it was only one night that at issue. When the arrangements changed this should have been discussed again even if the holiday couldn’t be changed. You are basically having the children for an entire school holiday. Whether or not this is something you can accommodate going forward is something you need to agree.

I don’t know if you used the same language with him as you did in your post but it was probably going to wind him up. Telling is different from asking and you always needed his agreement. It is not going to make him feel more empowered as a parent if you say you will go to court and get approval. This is counter parenting on both parts but in this particular situation you caused it.

I would acknowledge why he is annoyed, apologise and then ask what he would see as being an equivalent opportunity to have quality time with the children. Then get some mediation to sort out how you will co parent to avoid this in the future.

This is great advice.

My now DH’s EW would ‘TELL’ him when she was taking ‘HER’ children away / what contact days SHE was allowing him and it caused lots of problems.

Even with a court order in place (as he got so tired of being dictated to) it didn’t really get any better and it ended up with resentment on both sides.

I think many mothers (usually the RP) forget they aren’t the most important parent, nor are they in charge. NRP aren’t secondary.

An open discussion many times would of stopped so much toxicity between them.

The mediation advice is good advice. Sadly my DH & EW now have an absolutely toxic relationship (mainly down to him being TOLD when he could and couldn’t see his own children and getting the dregs of holiday dates after she had decided and told him what she was going to do / take).

You have many years of co parenting ahead - and the word ‘Co’ is key. Try to work together.

Original poster

Nimbus1999 · 27/11/2023 14:55

I have apologised and said in future, will discuss before booking. Have also said happy to put in the consent order in the forthcoming child custody hearing so we have a plan in place.

As sad as it is, I don’t think we will ever be “co” parents - more parallel parenting.

OP posts:

Keepinmovin · 27/11/2023 15:00

Why don't you just say "sorry I should have clarified it was abroad. Will do so in future. Would you like to have them for the whole next half term ? Or you have first pick of summer dates?"

It may take the sting out of the tail if you offer something up front.

Generally though although I've always had a written permission slip, I've never needed it

Original poster

Nimbus1999 · 27/11/2023 15:42

I have offered a swap for the day he is missing, so he could have them on my weekend for example. In terms of having them for the whole of another half term, this is not something he has ever requested / wanted. I can offer though.

OP posts:

Original poster

Nimbus1999 · 27/11/2023 15:43

Mediation was unsuitable so that is not an option. Hence trying to muddle through the best we can.

OP posts:

Whattodo112222 · 27/11/2023 15:54

Do you have a court order where the kids live with you but have contact with him? If so. You do not need his permission.

Original poster

Nimbus1999 · 27/11/2023 16:00

Court is pending. Waiting for the section 7 report.

OP posts:

Marmight · 27/11/2023 20:21

if you manage to get a 'lives with' order as the RP, you will get permission automatically included that you take the kids abroad for up to 28 days without obtaining his permission first.
Not quite sure how this would work if its 50:50 going forwards.
Even if you do get this, always better to 'ask' him in advance. You have the court's permission regardless of his answer.

Redlarge · 27/11/2023 20:42

Marmight · 27/11/2023 20:21

if you manage to get a 'lives with' order as the RP, you will get permission automatically included that you take the kids abroad for up to 28 days without obtaining his permission first.
Not quite sure how this would work if its 50:50 going forwards.
Even if you do get this, always better to 'ask' him in advance. You have the court's permission regardless of his answer.

You dont need a court order. Up to 28 days the resident parent doesnt need permission from the other parent.

Marmight · 27/11/2023 20:48

@Redlarge

Under what legislation do you think you already have permission to travel abroad with your children, as the resident parent, without permission from the non-resident parent?

Care to quote it?

titchy · 27/11/2023 20:52

Marmight · 27/11/2023 20:48

@Redlarge

Under what legislation do you think you already have permission to travel abroad with your children, as the resident parent, without permission from the non-resident parent?

Care to quote it?

Is the court gives OP a 'lives with' order she can take them abroad without his permission for 28 days.

The regular MN solicitors who post on legal all say this is the case and I'm sure they'll quote you the legislation if you ask nicely.

Marmight · 27/11/2023 21:03

@titchy

"Is the court gives OP a 'lives with' order she can take them abroad without his permission for 28 days."

I know. Thats exactly what I said.

However @Redlarge said the exact opposite:

"You dont need a court order. Up to 28 days the resident parent doesnt need permission from the other parent."

And hence me asking for an official source.
Clue. There isn't one

titchy · 27/11/2023 21:05

Ah ok misunderstood you sorry!

Marmight · 27/11/2023 21:09

no worries 😊

Paddleboarder · 27/11/2023 21:12

I don't think it's very likely that you will need consent or that you will be questioned about it. I wouldn't worry.

Redlarge · 27/11/2023 22:25

Marmight · 27/11/2023 21:03

@titchy

"Is the court gives OP a 'lives with' order she can take them abroad without his permission for 28 days."

I know. Thats exactly what I said.

However @Redlarge said the exact opposite:

"You dont need a court order. Up to 28 days the resident parent doesnt need permission from the other parent."

And hence me asking for an official source.
Clue. There isn't one

It was actually my solicitor who told me and ive been abroad 3 times without asking or getting it. We have different names too me and the children. No problems at all.
But a quick google and it looks like without a court order she was wrong to tell me that. 😳
There must be a court application you can make... or will the section 7 be done before you need to travel.

Original poster

Nimbus1999 · 28/11/2023 04:43

Do you think I can include this in the section 7 / existing court application? Or will I have to make a separate application to try to get permission? I see that I can apply for a “specific issue order” at further cost.

OP posts:

LemonTT · 28/11/2023 10:41

Well you can ask and hope it is dealt with before the holiday. But you aren’t just asking for permission to go abroad. You will be showing the court that you have breached the agreement and want them to accept that along with your request to go abroad. Speak to your solicitor about how you present this as it’s not making you look good.

In relation to people saying it will be ok to take them because no one checks. They check if the other parent reports it as an abduction. This happened to a someone I know who had got verbal agreement and informed the other parent who was batshit abusive. The family were stopped at the airport.

Redlarge · 28/11/2023 12:51

Nimbus1999 · 28/11/2023 04:43

Do you think I can include this in the section 7 / existing court application? Or will I have to make a separate application to try to get permission? I see that I can apply for a “specific issue order” at further cost.

Id include it