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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Original poster

Child arrangements, mediation and courts

17 replies

Teapot2023 · 09/10/2023 23:14

Has anyone been through the mediation and/or court process to set child contact arrangements with ex-partner?
Ex and me are heading down that route unfortunately and I’m really worried what this will mean for my DD. She’s just 9 months and father and I live 100miles apart. What are typical contact arrangements set by courts in long distance situations?

My scenario:

  • partner and I never lived together and split up when DD was 3 months, she’s 9 months now. I moved to West Midlands to be closer to family while ex stayed in London.
  • We agreed that he’d come to see DD fortnightly for a couple of hours each time. He is now wanting me to bring her down to London for him to see her half of those times. This is a 4+ hour round trip and I don’t think would be in her best interests. I also commute to London for work during the week and don’t really have the energy to go in on the weekend too
  • He also opposes me to stay with him and DD during his visits as he wants alone time with her. I insist on staying because she doesn’t remember him in between visits and gets distressed when I’m not there which I don’t think is good for her. She stays unsettled for the rest of the day and into the night on those days too. Ex-partner is adamant that he has a right to see her one-on-one and me staying with them is encroaching on his parenting time
  • He’s reduced maintenance payments as wants all his travel costs to be taken from the sum
-he is also looking to have her overnight and eventually for her to spend all (yes, all) school holidays with him
  • he wants to go to mediation as feels he is within his rights with the requests

I am a bit stunned by his requests tbh and would love to hear if they sound reasonable to others?

Needless to say I’m taking care of our baby alone at the moment which is exhausting enough and ex-partner’s requests are just adding extra stress and anxiety. Of course it’s about our daughter’s best interests not mine but his attitude feels very one-sided and unfair.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

OP posts:
FSTraining · 10/10/2023 00:42

He can't compel you to travel to London but his other demands are reasonable. Alone time with his daughter is perfectly reasonable and also if you have chosen to move 100 miles away, he will also be allowed to deduct reasonable travel costs from child maintenance payments.

Mumof3confused · 10/10/2023 05:06

Having her all holidays is obviously not in her best interest, so no.

Try mediation but make sure your mediator is also a solicitor so they know what is likely to be ruled by a judge.

FSTraining · 10/10/2023 13:09

Mumof3confused · 10/10/2023 05:06

Having her all holidays is obviously not in her best interest, so no.

Try mediation but make sure your mediator is also a solicitor so they know what is likely to be ruled by a judge.

It's not necessarily better if they are a solicitor, especially on a cross border matter like this. Bear in mind that for a mediator to be good at their job, they need to keep as many cases away from a contested court case as possible and therefore if they focus on mediation, recent court settlements probably won't be their expertise anyway. Also, the law has wide discretion on matters like this so no good solicitor is going to be able to do more than suggest a very wide range of possible outcomes.

I'm 11 months away from (hopefully) being fully qualified myself. I could become a mediator next September if I wanted to. And I wouldn't have a clue how a case like this could be settled in court, and nor will most solicitors who go into mediation. Even a direct access barrister is going to struggle with this one.

CapturedLeprechaun · 10/10/2023 14:55

As you were the one who moved away, yes it's reasonable for you to do half the journeys, and yes, his travel costs can be deducted from maintenance.

Alone time without you there is also a very reasonable request by 9 months old, particularly as it's only a couple of hours currently.

The school holidays one is less reasonable, so this one a mediator should be able to explain that 50/50 in the holidays is a good starting point.

Original poster
Teapot2023 · 10/10/2023 16:24

Thank you. The reason for moving out of London was for better living arrangements for DD and me and to have support in raising her as ex wasn't going to provide dad-to-day care/support.

Any advice from the community on how to deal with DD being unsettled when alone with her dad as she doesn't remember him between visits?

OP posts:
Original poster
Teapot2023 · 10/10/2023 16:32

FSTraining · 10/10/2023 13:09

It's not necessarily better if they are a solicitor, especially on a cross border matter like this. Bear in mind that for a mediator to be good at their job, they need to keep as many cases away from a contested court case as possible and therefore if they focus on mediation, recent court settlements probably won't be their expertise anyway. Also, the law has wide discretion on matters like this so no good solicitor is going to be able to do more than suggest a very wide range of possible outcomes.

I'm 11 months away from (hopefully) being fully qualified myself. I could become a mediator next September if I wanted to. And I wouldn't have a clue how a case like this could be settled in court, and nor will most solicitors who go into mediation. Even a direct access barrister is going to struggle with this one.

Show quote history

Thanks FSTraining, so it sounds like 'the luck of the draw' on what the court might decide in our situation, which is quite daunting. But surely we are not the only once in this situation and there would be precedents?

Would the court be likely to pass an order while DD is so little or suggest coming back when she's older? Seems so difficult to rule on what happens for the next 16-18 years with no flexibility to alter.

I do wonder what the range of outcomes could be - specifically with frequency of visits and overnight arrangements. Any thoughts on this?

OP posts:
Octobermeterreadtime · 10/10/2023 16:35

Call his bluff op. I seriously doubt he will ask again after a few hours alone with a screaming unsettled baby... Send him a list of all HE will have to provide for your dd during those hours.. No handing over a pre made up bag.

Original poster
Teapot2023 · 10/10/2023 21:59

Octobermeterreadtime · 10/10/2023 16:35

Call his bluff op. I seriously doubt he will ask again after a few hours alone with a screaming unsettled baby... Send him a list of all HE will have to provide for your dd during those hours.. No handing over a pre made up bag.

I was considering this, but it breaks my heart to put my little one through this just to prove the point that we need to take things slowly with her.

OP posts:
Kirstyshine · 10/10/2023 22:08

Think about what you want for her longer term. A close relationship with her dad would be such a gift to her. Tell him you want this. Talk about where you see things at 5yo, 10yo, 15yo - how exciting to have a dad in London when you’re a teen! Help him relax as you find shared future aims for your shared daughter. And then talk about how you get from here to there. Alone time with his 9mo is ok. Show her photos of him, FaceTime him i between visits. Talk positively about him and her, and do what you can to relax your body as you approach his contact time. She is so attuned to your feelings at this age, but she needs you to be ok for her to enjoy seeing her dad. Good luck! X

Theunamedcat · 10/10/2023 22:13

You work in London are you planning on moving back when she is older? Why not take her down on a working day and he spend time with her while you work?

FSTraining · 11/10/2023 10:16

Teapot2023 · 10/10/2023 16:32

Thanks FSTraining, so it sounds like 'the luck of the draw' on what the court might decide in our situation, which is quite daunting. But surely we are not the only once in this situation and there would be precedents?

Would the court be likely to pass an order while DD is so little or suggest coming back when she's older? Seems so difficult to rule on what happens for the next 16-18 years with no flexibility to alter.

I do wonder what the range of outcomes could be - specifically with frequency of visits and overnight arrangements. Any thoughts on this?

Show quote history

It's not "luck of the draw." It's just a very complicated area of law and you need an experienced practitioner who knows both your relevant state law in the US and the relevant UK law (which I am assuming is English law).

You certainly won't be the first people in this situation. There probably has to be a case in the US before the UK on a matter like this one though, so precedent will start on the basis of either state or federal law where you live.

I couldn't possibly begin to answer your question about when she could be ordered to return. Before I began to qualify as a solicitor, I would have assumed a consent order in the UK would have been an end to the matter and my gut still tells me that is the likely outcome if it makes you feel better. But unfortunately I've learned to be a lot more cautious in making those assumptions now and I really wouldn't like to say this would be the outcome. One thing I can say though is that the older they are, the more their own wishes come into the picture. England is a country going down the toilet at the moment and the prospect of living in it with an alcoholic probably isn't going to be many teenagers' idea of fun.

If I had to gamble on an outcome - and this is definitely not professional expertise speaking - I would say it's likely he will be told he can visit more. He may even have more rights than the average person to get a green card and to live in the USA because he has children living there. There are certainly immigration rules of that nature in the UK.

TBOM · 11/10/2023 10:21

FSTraining · 11/10/2023 10:16

It's not "luck of the draw." It's just a very complicated area of law and you need an experienced practitioner who knows both your relevant state law in the US and the relevant UK law (which I am assuming is English law).

You certainly won't be the first people in this situation. There probably has to be a case in the US before the UK on a matter like this one though, so precedent will start on the basis of either state or federal law where you live.

I couldn't possibly begin to answer your question about when she could be ordered to return. Before I began to qualify as a solicitor, I would have assumed a consent order in the UK would have been an end to the matter and my gut still tells me that is the likely outcome if it makes you feel better. But unfortunately I've learned to be a lot more cautious in making those assumptions now and I really wouldn't like to say this would be the outcome. One thing I can say though is that the older they are, the more their own wishes come into the picture. England is a country going down the toilet at the moment and the prospect of living in it with an alcoholic probably isn't going to be many teenagers' idea of fun.

If I had to gamble on an outcome - and this is definitely not professional expertise speaking - I would say it's likely he will be told he can visit more. He may even have more rights than the average person to get a green card and to live in the USA because he has children living there. There are certainly immigration rules of that nature in the UK.

Show quote history

I think you replied to the wrong thread - the OP and her ex are both in England.

FSTraining · 11/10/2023 10:24

Yep! Any chance you could edit your post to remove the quote, then I can edit mine!

beachcitygirl · 11/10/2023 10:26

I'd call his bluff. I'd say I'll move back to London & we'll do 50/50

See what happens.
Prick.

Octobermeterreadtime · 11/10/2023 10:33

Ultimately you continued with your pregnancy surely knowing at some point you would have to hand your dc over to her other parent? Do it now. Send him that list.. Add on buggy /car seat /everything she will need. Tell him to let you know when he is organised enough to have dd. Specify her hand made organic baby food recipes also for her delicate tummy. . And the washable nappies you buy or she gets terrible nappy rash..

AnneLovesGilbert · 11/10/2023 10:42

What do think is the best and fairest outcome? Your child has two parents, do you want her to have a relationship with her father or would you rather she didn’t see him at all? When you moved what did you think would happen?

AnneLovesGilbert · 11/10/2023 10:44

Specify her hand made organic baby food recipes also for her delicate tummy. . And the washable nappies you buy or she gets terrible nappy rash..

Even if these were things OP was actually doing rather than attempts at obstruction, her child’s dad isn’t obliged to parent as she does.

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