Pensions 🤯

[User63847439572]

been separated almost a year and just started the divorce online.
STBX is very resistant to involving solicitors, but also very difficult to communicate and negotiate with directly.
my solicitor has recommended getting a pensions specialist involved. STBX is being very tricky but re. pensions has said he’s happy to share but that they valuation now means nothing so we should just share them at the point they’re paid so that we get equal income from the pensions we built up during the marriage. He thinks I’m worrying about the admin side too much and this will be easy enough to do.

he has a private pension pot of about £600K. I have a defined benefit public sector scheme - cash value not known as it’s more complicated to work out but less than £100K. Some of its final salary and some is career average but my earnings never went above £22K due to being part time. Altogether I’ve got about 16 years in the scheme. He is 51, I’m 42.

can anyone explain how it works? Is he right that we could do it simply ourselves and just tell the pension companies what we want to happen? What could the report do for us? It’s going to cost a few thousand and I know he’ll be resistant but I trust my solicitor.

should also mention that initially he said we shouldn’t bother valuing the pensions because mine would be worth more because of it being public sector….

I suspect if you did that he could just refuse to pay you. I think he's trying do cheat you but take legal advice.

What he is suggesting is a terrible idea.

I think you probably are underestimating the value of your pension. But it would be worth getting them valued given the apparent difference, even with underestimate.

You need to get a pension actuary involved (my mums cost about 2k) and they will work out what's fair.

It needs to be properly sorted out. What if he does in the meantime and leaves it all to someone else? Once you are financially settled you aren't linked, so he could just say no. He can't just give you half at the time with no tax implications. Sounds like he is trying to make it cheaper for himself to keep more to be honest.

i suspect he is trying to keep hold of his significantly higher pension. Insist on fair split of assets now so you can make a clean break.

He is trying to rip you off. Listen to your solicitor's advice, after all that's what you are paying them for , to protect your interests.

Given the differences in ages it may be sensible to negotiate to offset a greater cash/equity settlement for you and let him keep his pension.

You've got time to build up a better pot and cash now may help you keep on the property ladder.

Definitely take advice, you'll need to demonstrate you've had some advice if you want the court to rubber stamp the agreement

thanks for all the advice.

would the pension expert need to know before they do the report what we’ve negotiated/are going to negotiate?

it’s so hard as so far there’s no negotiation at all because of how he is.
but j kind of agree - what use is a massive pension to me when I won’t have that kind of lifestyle because I won’t have loads of spare cash at this stage?
ive always been part time due to the kids but am now full time public sector so should be able to build up a decent pot for myself anyway.

there is lots of equity floating about in the house so I should be able to get somewhere for the children and I. But it’s complicated so wasn’t going to bore everyone by getting into it but he is intend on ring fencing a large inheritance he got 10yrs ago then splitting the remainder 50/50 which depending on the house price we get could mean a 70:30 split in his favour. I’m actually fine with him keeping as much as possible of the inheritance (which went into the mortgage) but think the the Dc and I should be provided for first, and that might mean he can’t have the full figure he wants to ring fence.

No he doesn’t get to ring fence the inheritance, it is now a marital asset. You will not be doing your children any favours by agreeing to less than 50:50. As he is a bigger earner and you facilitated this by caring for the children the split should actually be in your favour.

I know, and my solicitor is encouraging me not to feel under pressure to accept what he’s proposing. But I’m also weighing by up the impact on my children of him becoming very embittered and unpleasant.
even if less than half, if I come away with a mortgage free 4 bed house in my name (3 kids) and a small safety net in the bank that will be more than enough for me and them and a lot more than most have.
it doesn’t matter to me that he’ll be in a bigger fancier house (by himself most of the time) or have loads more cash in the bank, he cares a lot more about money than me.

I’m afraid if you are getting divorced the boat has sailed on bitterness. Don’t let him bully you.

Just been through similar myself. Definitely get pensions valued and then decisions can be made based on facts and not what he is trying to suggest. Don’t let him persuade you, this is your one chance to get an agreement that is best for you and your children for now and the future. His suggestions all sound like he will come out of this much better off than you. Don’t let him minimise your concerns.

His inheritance is as much in the marital pot as everything else. He doesn’t get to keep all of it, especially at the detriment of you and the children.

Please ensure you get this done properly. Yes a pension actuary to value and compare the pensions will have a cost but you will end up with accurate information and not some half arsed agreement your ex has made that is in his favour.

His bitterness is not your problem. Homelessness as an issue is becoming a bigger and bigger problem for women in their 50's because of divorce, because they want to keep it 'fair' for their ex partner- who does not have the same qualms on their behalf about their ex wives. His want to wing fence, or have a gentleman's agreement about the pension etc is not your problem. Neither is his reaction to what is deemed a fair assessment of the assets in court. We need to stop accomodating men who do nothing to accomodate us back, why should he get a 70/30 split, unless he is the main career for the children. You want to give him as little inconvenience as possible, and making his life better is no longer your job. Listen to the solicitor, get the pensions valued, as don't make your own later years miserable potentially for the sake of him!

You both get written details if your pension pot and pass this to each other for the purposes of divorce (step 1), then you can see if you can agree what tge split should.

No way should you agree to getting it at some later date - if he dies and is not married his pension will die with him, although there would likely be dependents pension(s) for wife and.
Trust your solicitor!

Please listen to your solicitor and get the pensions valued properly and make decisions from there. Funny how often on here the person with the most assets and biggest pension suggests not to bother getting things properly valued and that ‘we can just agree things ourselves’.

I also meant to say the suggestion of sharing the pensions at the point they are paid is very unlikely to get signed off legally anyway. What if one of you dies in the meantime or he leaves his pension to a new spouse?

Courts want a clean break these days and pensions will be valued and a pension sharing order can be used to transfer funds from one pot to the other then it’s all done now.

An actuary can do an in-depth report on pension sharing - what capital and income would be if the pensions split 50/50, or to equalise income or to a percentage of choice. They can be instructed to factor in future retirement ages of the parties.

First step is to get a CETV (cash equivalent transfer value) of each of the pensions from the pension companies. Companies must send one upon request in divorce cases (a free one may be issued each year). This shows capital value only. Next step is to instruct an actuary. If your husband wishes to equalise income and you are in agreement, the actuary can be instructed to do the report on that basis.

Research shows women tend to be disadvantaged by not taking into account pensions on divorce / getting an actuary report
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/divorce-pensions-women-b1158398.html

Info - Pensions on divorce
https://www.sharingpensions.co.uk/penaudit3.htm
https://www.mediateuk.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-pensions-on-divorce/
https://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/news/new-good-practice-guide-addresses-shortfall-in-understanding-of-how-to-treat-pensions-on-divorce

Valuation of pensions – pensions on divorce expert report (actuary)
https://www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk no relation – useful website
https://www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk/pension-data-collection/ templates for information required.

Form P
Once you have CETVs of pensions and if going for a pension sharing or pension attachment order, pension providers must be put ‘on notice’ and this is by sending them Form P.

Advice and info
These offer a free advice session about pensions on divorce and separation https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/divorce-and-separation/divorce-or-dissolution-how-we-can-help-with-your-pension
Free advice line (busy so keep trying) https://rightsofwomen.org.uk

Guides on divorce and financial settlement
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/divorce-and-separation
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-apply-financial-order-without-help-lawyer

@User63847439572

In addition to my post on pensions and as for the rest of the finances,

Before you make any agreements, first disclose all assets to one another (Form E shows you what to include). That includes up to date valuations of each of the assets - documentary evidence.
It's helpful to use ES2 Form to list the assets and liabilities.
The purpose of the ES2 is to record the assets, liabilities, and income values in a simple and neutral format, and in such a way as to enable any differences in the values asserted by the parties to be highlighted and identified easily by a mediator/the court.
Once you have all the assets listed and valued, consider mediation to agree a split of assets.
Apply Section 25 factors to work out the split of assets - these need to be applied in every case, regardless of whether you are engaged in court proceedings or negotiating your own settlement.
Once asset split is agreed in accordance with Section 25 factors, you can fill in a form D81 for the court.
Form D81 is completed and accompanies the Consent Order when filing with the court. It requires parties to set out their assets for example property and pensions, any liabilities they may have, their income and any other information that may be relevant for the court to know about the agreement reached. ES2 can also be sent in.

Section 25 Factors
https://images.ctfassets.net/o8luwa28k6k2/2cpp2mEMwBJWJLuzTiTruB/b5397e7459154fad8927826a2c99acdd/section-25-expert-guide.pdf

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/18/section/25

Make sure you consider and take financial care of the older woman you will become.

Greedy exes will be bitter and unpleasant if you get a £5 or your true legal entitlement. So tell him you would hate to have him think you ripped him off so on that basis you are only prepared to take your legal share of everything as determined by the judge.

Hey if the judge awards you more than you think you deserve you can always donate money back to him as a gift… or put it into the kids uni or house funds…

An extra 6 m of unpleasantness now is going to be WELL worth it in 20 years.

you really do need to take a long term view on this as he is trying to shaft you

After your update it's even more clear that he's trying to cheat you.
Please get proper legal advice and don't agree to his terms.

PLEASE get a proper evaluation done by a pensions specialist. I'm going through this right now - ex initially refused and offered half his smaller pension (he has another sizeable one he wanted to keep) but taking everything into account - length of marriage, ages, earning potential etc - i would've been 100s of k worse of than him if i'd accepted. It's about ensuring equality of income going forward.
My solicitor said in our circs the court would want it done anyway, so stbx eventually agreed.
It's costing us around £800 each, and will take about 9 weeks.
As a pp said, you need to take the long view here and think about your future, not what your ex wants.