Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Objective input required.

9 replies

justtryingtodotherightthing · 29/06/2023 17:07

Sorry, a bit long, but how do you summarize the disintegration of a long marriage into a paragraph. We have two children (10, 12) and have been together in a "long marriage". There is no specific reason/wrong doing for wanting to seperate other than we're deeply unhappy with each other and that is impacting our children.

The 30 second version:

  • I am the "high" earner
  • I have no visibility of her finances, she is self employed but doesn't contribute to the family income, likely £12k or so per year
  • She owns a property from before we married, I have no visibility
  • She wants me to move out of the family home
  • We have each proposed sharing children 50/50
  • She wants to continue to live in the family home until our youngest son turns 18
  • She wants me to continue to support her, e.g. pay the mortgage, bills, food, etc
  • We have always shared parental and household duties, cooking, cleaning, school drop offs, pickups, admin, bedtimes, bathtimes, etc... I'd argue I do more of this than her, it could get contentious :)

My counter proposal is that:

  • I am not leaving the family home until we have sorted out what we're doing, ideally not at all as I am willing to buy her out if possible
  • My salary can't pay for two households
  • Agree 50/50 parenting and make a co-parenting agreement
  • Exchange Form E financial disclosure
  • Starting point of asset split is 50/50, each taking independant solicitors advice
  • I have stated that I want to have a clean and final break and not ongoing spousal maintenance , perhaps that will require a split of the assets in her favour so she can stand on her own two feet immediately, so be it.

Is this unreasonable on my part?

I think the contentious point is going to be the split of current assets, spousal maintenance and the family home, i.e. all of the $$ part. And if that goes sour, she will start using our children as pawns in this dispute - this is what her parents did - and is something I am petrified of, I just want them to be as happy and stable as we can given what will be a tough situation at the best of times. I feel like I do most of the parenting as she is often chaotic and her plans and mental state changes with the wind, I am lucky that my work is very flexible and I can flex hours and location to suit her rapid changes. While not being with them 50% of the time will be so sad and slightly worrying, I can't see that there is any point in pursuing a custody battle which likely won't be successful and will only turn nasty - hopefully by being apart, we will each be better parents and people.

With only my salary for the household over the last decade, we have often lived hand to mouth. We don't have much in savings or assets beyond the family home, a small penson on my part and some investments. I don't know what she does or doesn't have.

I imagine we will have to sell the family home, we do have substantial equity in it. But she will likely need to rent, as doesn't have enough years of SA income declared for mortgage application and it is a rotten time to be applying for a mortgage.

My understanding of the intent of the determination for ongoing spousal maintenance is based on needs of the household and nothing to with the marriage or conduct in the marriage, which is super frustrating from my perspective as one of the primary reasons for the breakdown of the marriage is that I don't want to support her indefinitely while she refuses to work/contribute meaningfully to the family income.

In terms of her earning potential, we're mid 40's. She could easily ish pick up where she left off in her previous career with minimal re-training and I think quickly accelerate to being a high earner.

The Background:

We initially worked in the same industry, and my wife used to earn more than me. But she always doubted it as career choice and suffers from imposter syndrome. I felt that with time and experience confidence would follow. But this has never been the case, and rather than cement her confidence with professional accreditations and study she decided use that time to retrain in other fields, part time. But has never actually completed a degree, always changing field of study couple of years, for the last 15 years.

When we had our second child, she decided to quit her career, as she hated it, due to the above mentioned feelings, and pursue yet another course of study, this one in the arts with no real end goal/plan - I disagreed and urged her to continue working, but she quit anyway. We hired a full time nanny initially, so she could study full time. She started teaching children arts part time while she continued to study, so I compressed my hours and then applied for flexible working so I could do school drop offs, pickups, running the house, cooking, etc, so she had time and space to pursue her goals, while it was also my income alone that supports our household. I realise I slept walked into this situation, but I always felt that as long as she was happy, then the children would be happy, and we could all be as happy as we could be. But increasingly she is not happy, so none of us are happy.

Over the last couple of years, I have grown ever more despairing; the lack of willingness to work and contribute is one thing, as I never felt like I had a choice in having the breadwinner role thrust on me, but there is much else that is just too subjective/complex/nuanced to be able to fairly/accurately represent and I guess not really relevant other than I've just had enough.

OP posts:
millymollymoomoo · 29/06/2023 17:36

Courts will always try to achieve a clean break
the of your children means she will be expected to work full time / maximise her earnings rather than rely on spousal
you won’t be expected to pay the mortgage and bills on her home
a mesher order ( where your share is deferred until youngest is 18) will only be awarded as last resort if there is no alternative
to achieve a mesher she’d need to demonstrate she can afford to take over the mortgage and bills

all assets should be in the pot for split
she needs to declare her current income plus potential as well as the property she owns
any pensions or other investments also need considering

likely the two properties will end up being sold and split, possibly with her getting slightly higher % and two properties purchased if pretty equal nature to allow both parties adequate housing for chikdren

there may be temporary period of support to allow her a short period of adjustment - depends on your own income and ability to do so

she is taking the piss
you are on the right track in your thinking
do not let her weaponise the children or guilt trip you

Marmight · 29/06/2023 17:39

How high a high earner?
Mesher orders are rare these days. Courts prefer a clean break.
Your STBXW will need to support herself. Spousal maintenance is rare unless your income is stratospheric and then only for a short period while your STBXW gets on with being able to support herself
All marital assets are in the pot. She may well get a higher % as your future earning capacity is larger

LemonTT · 29/06/2023 17:46

There is a lot of backstory and whilst some of it might be relevant most isn’t.

Given the your ages and the ages of your children the first option would be to work towards a clean break. You haven’t provided any information to demonstrate whether there is enough assets to facilitate a clean break. Or what the housing costs are in your local area.

As a 40 year old adult with two children in school, both with be in secondary school soon enough, she can work. With UC your ex would probably have an income of c25-30k, possibly more. She would probably be entitled to more than 50% of the equity in both properties and savings as part of the clean break. Her second home will be considered and is marital asset if she used that income as part of the marriage. Pensions are generally just equalised.

Without knowing what your income is, it’s difficult to see whether a spousal maintenance claim would be worthwhile or successful. It reduces UC entitlement which is a better option for someone on a low income. But if you earn a huge amount it could succeed and be worth having.

The reasons why she didn’t work are not going to be considered. The fact of the marriage is that she didn’t and as such has low earning potential exiting the marriage. She will get a bigger share of assets because you earn more. But she probably won’t get spousal maintenance (unless she has a training plan to earn more money and then it will be limited in time).

You will both have to do mediation. You will both have to get legal advice. If you listen to qualified advice and act on it then you will both come to a reasonable position. She is currently being very unrealistic but you are also unrealistic just not as much.

Make your peace with the fact she didn’t work, the legal process won’t unpick why that was. But going forward, her maximum earning potential not actual earnings will be used to work out her needs.

Finally, don’t move out with someone being so unreasonable. There is a risk she will dig in for years to stay in the family home.

Fullofdoubtsme · 29/06/2023 21:45

Also higher earner and for past 6 years he accommodated into that. When I asked for divorce 18mo ago he got desperate for a number of reasons but as I wanted out "no matter what" and didnt want to sour dispute in court have been taking it slow to help him find his feet.
He eventually got a low paying job that takes cares of his bills. Initially as he didn't want to leave fam home I said fine, he'd buy a house with equity split from house, and I'd live there while he lived in house, each paying for opposite costs. He eventually decided to move as realised I'd be "free" nd he'd have the burden of house, dog, teenage kids ft but your wife might prefer it. I also agreed to some extra money to him while he didnt earn much, in my mind its going towards my kids anyway and I want him to find happiness and be comfortable. Most importantly now I want to separate and he needs to learn to live on his own for first time like your wife so I'm allowing him the time. He's slowly regaining confidence and enjoying the independence. Maybe it happens to her too.

Fullofdoubtsme · 29/06/2023 21:46

Btw did all diy, no mediation or solicitors (save when I went for advice). I'd rather spend the money on him and kids then on legal fees.

justtryingtodotherightthing · 30/06/2023 11:33

Firstly, thanks for the comments. It is helpful.

I don't know how much in assets is required to afford a clean break, what is the approach to determine this roughly? E.g. shortfall from (cost of housing + cost of living needs) minus income multiplied by some timeframe to gain financial independence? I suppose if all was well and we managed to sell everything at a good price with a tail wind, the total asset pot incl investments, pensions etc, might just be shy of £800k, excluding whatever she has that I don't know about.

We live in central ish london, so accommodation is £££, a 3 bed house to rent is about £2500pm or to buy about £600k if you got lucky and found a rough place in our area. She wouldn't be able to apply for a mortgage independently at this point in time, so am assuming she would need to rent in the short term.

In terms of my income, it is high for sure - but not stratospheric, - a lot is at risk annual bonuses and stock that vests over a long time period. We don't spend much (no car payments, no finance, no credit cards etc) and yet don't have much left over after the bills for a family of four in central london, our mortgage is floating which doesn't help lately, we do spend a lot on the children in terms of tutors, sports clubs etc. It wouldn't stretch to two households that is for sure.

OP posts:
Appleofmyeye2023 · 30/06/2023 18:03

Use link to ADVICE NOW in header wbove
read up on “fair settlement “ . Those are legal requirements for financial split and will potentially override 50:50 . Even if you and spouse agree in consent order- courts can overall if not meeting fair settlement . This is based on future needs- not wants , and not historic or present circumstances

yes, you can and probably should remain in house (both) until you’ve at least got any fanciful settlement you’ve agreed legally drafted and ready to seal .

yes, don’t make any agreement until you’ve both completed and signed form E and summarised on D81

get your head around that you will be poorer. You both will. You will have to give up on some of stuff you’re still mentally holding onto. Part of that will be housing- of course you’re not going to be able to afford accommodation in way you did- you will have to downsize, children might need to share, you might need to commute further, you might need to move to an area that’s pants. A lot of people are in this situation. You will need to make cutbacks to things that affect your kids unfortunately. You are not recognising that marriage is a legal and financial benefit. Outside of marriage, a family will struggle to do anywhere near the things you financially did. You have to start focusing on NEEDS not wants. for instance, to overcome that “loss” and inevitable “fear” of unknown (which I’m sensing in you with all the “ah buts”) I worked hard on focusing what my new reality was likely to be and what my new life would therefore be like, ahead of negotiations…that way I was much more realistic and ready with the things I had up my sleeve to negotiate on to keep the things I didn’t want to give up (eg paying cash in lieu of pension) . Until I was able to visualise the future, I couldn’t really get going with reality of the divorce process outcomes.

if you’re concerned, for instance, about stock market falls, then you’ll just have to cash in now. But, let’s be fair this is a bit nonsensical and lame excuse- right now investments value are generally down on where they were 2 years ago ( some exceptions I know), and equally as well you could make a killing on them in the future post divorce if you play the long game. Which is what you do with investments. I’d certainly not, and I didn’t, go down that line to argue such ridiculous tosh . Just value them at point of separation as per the law states in form E and D81. The same risk applies to property just now, it’s always applied to pensions as well. 🤦‍♀️

Appleofmyeye2023 · 30/06/2023 18:04

Financial not fanciful - sorry that certainly wasn’t deliberate 🤦‍♀️

Appleofmyeye2023 · 30/06/2023 18:11

You can also pass on the ADVICE NOW guides to your wife. She needs to accept the financial fallout too.
She will have to declare her assets including the other house and that’ll have to be sold potentially as well.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page