Help needed to move forward

[tuttifritti]

Desperate for advice from someone who has been through this.

I am 18 months in to separation. Husband does not want to separate but we have the conditional order for divorce. Have done financial mediation and still don't have an agreement. Ultimately I think he will come up with any reason not to leave so I would really love to hear any experiences from people who have successfully navigated this.

• financially we earn similar amounts. I now earn a bit more than him
• I can raise the capital to buy him out through mortgage and liquidising another pre-marital asset
• I have offered over ceiling price for the property
• this deal would mean he would keep his pension in tact and ultimately walk away with around 60% of the martial pot
• he is refusing this offer, firstly he wildly overvalued the price of the house, now that he has been proven wrong he says he won't sell at the bottom of the market so won't agree to sell to a third party even
• he has assets he won't liquidise and claims these are not to be considered in any arrangement. I just pay him more to cover stamp duty, furniture, moving costs, his debts
• he can't buy me out
• the deal I offered above is my maximum. I can't go beyond that
• we have 2 DC who would really benefit from staying in the house. He doesn't seem to care much about that
• he wants us to remortgage the house and lock in for a cheaper deal for two years. I have said an unequivocal no to this

What the hell do I do?! I cannot keep living with him but I can't leave and give him a house either.
I have started the legal route. Does anyone know how long this takes? Please share your wisdom and experience wise Mumsnet

Little option but to apply for financial remedy via courts if his ideas on financial assets are wildly unrealistic.

However as you are talking about your pre marital assets as if they solely belong to you, are you sure he is the one being truly unreasonable here. Also you mention his assets,
..there are only actually joint assets as i understand it, not his and hers with marriage and divorce.

Usually with medium to long marriage its a marital pot of money that is divided (so everything considered altogether and divided from there). Starting point usually 50:50. You may achieve more. What has your solicitor said is reasonable? Unless you had some prenup, i think its a mistake to be thinking in terms of premarital assets or his pension personally, its all a joint pot, as will be your pension. Not sure how much weight any prenups have either, you'd need legal advice.

The thinking about all of this though imo should be around a pot of joint money. Im not a lawyer btw but do have some experience of divorce.

For financial remedy via court, can cost 20 to 30k (possibly more). Best ask your solicitors.

Thank you

This is an offer which is based on him keeping his pension so away from the legalities at this stage. I don't mind walking away with less if I can keep the children in the house. I have offered to give up the house and adjust my offer in return for a pension transfer but he is not accepting this.

My premarital asset is counted within him walking away with the 60%. But you are right, legal route seems the only way forward. Also it is becoming clear it is not really about any money. It is about staying put in the house and not moving on or allowing me to move on.

Yes, sorry, wasn't trying to be difficult. But for fair financial agreement on both sides it really probably is better to lump all of it together then work backwards. Then you can see in black and white what is fair. If there are business assets, not sure if they can be ringfenced perhaps - you'd need legal advice.

Personally i think its only once you've done that you can see in black and white what is truly reasonable. Have you both had pension valuations - as that is needed too. Try to see it just as a pot of money. If you earn the same, you may be looking at 50:50 of whole pot.

With my exs pension i got focused originally on a pension sharing order but just took a lump sum for that in the end. Don't know if right or wrong decision but he wasn't particularly reasonable either and sometimes people seem particularly attached to pensions so taking more cash instead is more palatable to some.

Once you have 50:50 calculation then you can see how far apart you are. If more than 30k difference in assets may be worth speaking to solicitor re how much court would cost and pushing it to next stage as worth spending the money to get what you are due. Only way to get some people to realise they cant ignore it away. For some people the threat of court is enough, for others not. Court would cost him financially too.

Some people achieve 60:40 or even 70:30 but not sure realistic if you earn the same. I think 50:50 is normal starting point if you are on around same income but your solicitor would know for sure.

We've done full financial disclosure and the difference is around £100k so the cost / benefit of pushing it is in my favour.

The reason I mention the separate assets is that mine is now sold and liquidised so the cash is there for the buy out. He has made a decision not to sell this asset though it makes no sense to not sell it. He has said that he is not including it in the pot as a 'point of principle' and will not be counting it to his affordability when seeking a new property which is why he feels I need to provide him with more cash (though transferring his pension is out of the question to him).

Immediately after separation he made payments to his pension so that money wasn't touchable.

We both have businesses. Mine is a freelance business so no inherent value other than my work and his is not realisable as he is a minority shareholder so we can agree to drop hands on those however he wants me to extract any operating cash flow from the business and give it to him (we are talking around £20k so a completely reasonable amount to keep in the company account for salary, incidentals and VAT purposes). Again there is no question of him using any of his business's capital and I have not asked him to do that.

The more I write the more I'm kicking myself for not starting legal proceedings sooner. He is quite out to lunch on this negotiation.

I am talking to my solicitor and we have had a technical stumbling block on launching the legal route which I am trying to resolve.

I have also hired a divorce coach as I find the solicitor seems unwilling to give much advice.

And no pre nup. I don't actually mind having less and 50:50 if I get to keep the house (albeit with a hefty mortgage).

It might be helpful to think of this as two different processes.

One is emotional - that is the track he is on.

The other is legal and that's the one you need to stay on.

Get all - really, all - the finances down. Don't make exceptions because you want to be kind or whatever - that is track 1 and it's a road to nowhere.

You can be kind within the legal process but get full financial disclosure of everything first. Then as part of that process you can formally offer to exchange pension for assets

He is being difficult, he is showing you who he is. Go for your FULL legal entitlement as per the solicitor. That includes his pension. He is a money grabber - his actions show you money is his priority. He no doubt thinks you are robbing him blind, he will think this if you take 5% of the pot or 60% of the pot.

So tell him you agree with him, he should get every penny he is entitled to. So the courts can decide.

Thus is your only chance to get money for the kids, he may run off to the Bahamas or pack in his job. You may get an illness. Take your FULL legal entitlement. You offered him a deal and he didn’t want it. Take it off the table.

He who cares least wins.

Just read your update. Stop speaking to him, it’s going nowhere.

Go for the full legal entitlement. Change his name in your phone to I Love Money and keep a journal to remind yourself of his priorities - read your notes daily to remind you what his priority is.

From experience, getting any kind of money from a business as part of divorce is very hard - onus would be on your ex to prove value etc and if you can prove it's just a job v hard for him to get anywhere there imo, particularly if he has his own business. I'd put that out of your mind personally... My ex who was a solicitor tried this approach but gave it up in the end (didn't get to court), so must have realised he was wasting his time.

Yes v annoying with solicitors as alot of what they tell you is just ifs, buts and maybes. Sounds like you've checked all sums though and if 100k difference, definitely worth going to court. That he is trying to hide assets and won't liquidise others does not matter when it gets to court.

My partner is dealing with someone who sounds similar to your ex (unrealistic and wanting to continually put a spanner in the works, his ex has dragged the divorce out for years). Best approach with these sorts is application for financial remedy. You are out of all other options, and it is what is needed to get what is fair and for you to move on with your life. Your ex is still trying to call the shots. As others say, he's stuck on the emotional side not the practical side. Court will sort that out.

Really appreciate all your advice. This has given me a lot of clarity

Same, my ex dragged it out. We ended up with a full court hearing. It's a process, it's takes time and it's costly, but when you've tried the 'nice' way and he won't play ball, then he deserves everything that's coming at him. Just make sure your solicitor and Counsel are the best you can afford.

Thank you unsync. That is really useful information. Do you mind me asking how long it took in the end?

I started proceedings in 2018 and they finished in 2022. He used all sorts of tactics, not submitting paperwork on time, not coming to court, ignoring interim orders, liquidated his pension fund, changing solicitors twice, then self representing. I had to use court bailiffs to serve papers and he hid from them to avoid service. He was held in contempt of Court.

Hopefully, your H will behave a bit better as mine was just horribly abusive and used the divorce process to continue that abuse. However, I was awarded everything as the Judge took his behaviour into consideration, which apparently is very rare and he was co-habiting, so had no housing needs.

Wow, he sounds even worse that mine. Thank you for sharing and I'm glad you got a good outcome in the end.

If you’ve got pensions definitely get them valued. They can be a big asset and it’s the only way to split everything fairly.

It sounds more like he doesn't want to move out, rather than doesn't want to separate as such?

I'm not sure the nuance matters to me as the impact is the same. A defining aspect of separating is no longer living together and he seems to be blocking any routes to that (him buying me out, me buying him out or us selling to a third party).

@tuttifritti
I think it's quite an important difference to work out where you are both at with it, as you can be living together but separated, or living separately but still a couple. Has he definitely come to terms with the fact you're splitting up?

Have you spoken to a solicitor, I think going down the legal route is your best option and the route most people take?

You don’t say why you feel
you need to stay in this house but my advice would be not to get too focussed on that as the end state. Many women get hung up on this and often to their detriment in a settlement.

children can and do move for many reasons and long term sometimes this can be the best way forward for a fresh start if that is a factor for you

as he won’t engage tell him the offer is withdrawn, you’ll now be seeking 50:50 and sale of house ( even if you don’t want that ) and that you’ll only deal via solicitors from here on.

as part of that he’ll need to complete form e which will involve him detailing ALL his assets

push for hearing in court of he still refuses to engage

As I said before any of the options are not acceptable to him. He won't sell to anyone, but me out or sell to me so keeping the house is not the only option on the table. I just want not to live with him.
Keeping the house would be good for the kids but if I can'f I would want a fair 50:50 settlement and he isn't prepared to offer that.

Well when push comes to shove and you've gone through the process with solicitors/ maybe court etc then he'll have to agree to something, whether it's acceptable to him or not. Could you move out with the kids temporarily while it all gets sorted out?