E Form - Pension Order - what do I say?

[Emptyinsidetothecore]

STBEH is getting a cash equivalent transfer value (CETV) from his pension provider (public sector, so defined benefit) and this will take a few more weeks. He's mentioned that I can have a "pot" which (he says) is normally how it works (apparently) but I don't know what that terminology is, or if that is right.

The E Form states the following options:
Pension sharing order
Pension attachment order
Pension compensation order
Pension compensation attachment order

I think it is a pension attachment order that he's saying, but looking at the cons, I would have to wait for that at my retirement age and if he dies, I might not get it.

My pension is a contributory, decent amount but I know his will be significantly bigger, and he needs the equity / cash from the house/savings, so doesn't want to use that money to buy me out of the pension (I'm guessing) so wants this other way of giving me a portion of his pension.

I'm nearing the end of completing the E Form so any input from anyone in a similar situation would be good, but specifically, where it asks under section 5, what pension order you are requesting, what do I say out of those options above?

Yes, based on my understanding, that’s pretty much how a PSO works. There is a legal transfer of funds from him to you at the point the order takes effect (another minefield as there is “transfer day” and “valuation day”). Having a PSO enables a clean break - an attachment order does not.

Whatever % of the benefits you agree between you should become yours, you get a pension credit for, and he gets a pension debit to the same amount (of the CETV).

Different schemes have different rules. Some may insist you become a member in your own right, whereas others might give you the option to do that, or transfer your credit to another pension fund of your choice (which will accept the credit).

The other things to consider are what impact it might have on your lifetime pension allowance. There will also be a few to pay for the scheme to administer the PSO.

@Timeforachange2023 that’s so helpful thank you.

Yes that’s how it works but you want both pensions properly valued because his pensions could easily be worth double the CETV so then your percentage will be much higher than if you base it on the CETV.

I don't know whether to start my own thread but all the pension experts seem to be on this one - if a Civil Service (an old scheme) pension is actually already being paid out, lump sum received and spent, and monthly income coming in (STBExH is 66, also receiving state pension) then what? And I am also receiving an old bank pension (Barclays 1962 scheme), that's also in payment already and is index linked too. How does the valuation work for those?

Personally we have so little money I'd rather just take some extra equity which I desperately need as our adult DD is housebound and will live with me. Its all very well talking about entitlement, I know I might have an entitlement but I am still working and I just want to let him keep his money and walk away. My solicitor advised an actuary and mediation, so that's going to be around £3k and maybe much more. To put this into context the pensions we are receiving are £900 and £200 per month respectively. Its not a lot of money we are (possibly) arguing over, so to get £3k+ together would represent 10% of sale proceeds of our house!

(Feel free to tell me off and I'll cut and paste this into a new thread, apologies to OP, hope your negations are going as well as they can)

@HangerLaneGyratorySystem what is the source of the 900 and the 200? How much equity do you have in your house?

Hi the £900 is H civil service pension and the £200 is my bank pension. There’s about £330k equity after fees etc - possibly £340k

It still works the same - you need to obtain CETVs, and pensions that are already in payment can still be shared.

If the lump sum has been taken and spent, then that’s consigned to the history books.

When people on here are talking about differences in pension values and getting an actuary, they are referring to differences between the CETV and the pension fund value (in the future).

It does sound like you would benefit from an actuarial report. Generally speaking, if you’re a younger couple divorcing with many years until retirement and time to build pension funds, the CETV is a pretty good yard stick. However, the closer you get to retirement, your priority is more likely to be working out what division of capital and earnings (including from pensions) would give you similar incomes in retirement - assuming it’s been a long marriage and the contributions have been made during the marriage.

You say in your post you are still working - presumably in paid work? You may therefore have a higher earning capacity, which would mean it might be a fair outcome not to touch your other half’s pension.

It all depends.

I can see why you need equity but in saying that your sole pension provision is very low currently. An actuary will look at your state pensions as well - will you be entitled to a full state pension payment? Surely it is 1% of the value of your home and not 10%?

@TheWelshTart I can't believe my maths is so bad! I shouldn't be allowed out where there are numbers - sorry yes. The £3k is 1% of the equity in the house, not 10%. (gets coat)

H is now receiving a full state pension and I will, when I retire but that's a way off and yes I still work. I could get a small mortgage on my salary/pension and he could get a similar small mortgage on his pensions alone, but I need 2 bedrooms and he doesn't.

Could anyone speculate how long it would take to go through this process with a Civil Service pension? I know its all been outsourced and of course the company will have no incentive whatsoever to provide the necessary figures.

In my case, the judge ordered the actuary report and that we should pay half each of the £2000 it was. And it was money well spent.

Re getting all financial information on the table and actuary report

To know what a fair split of assets is and to reach a financial settlement divorcing parties need to know exactly what the assets of the marriage are, and what each asset is worth.

Look at a Form E. A long document in which each party sets out their assets, income, and financial needs. You can see in it the assets that are taken into consideration upon divorce and financial settlement, for example property (the former marital home), pensions, stocks and shares etc. It also lists the documents needed that show the value of assets for example CETVs (cash equivalent transfer values of pensions - which can be requested from pension providers).

To find out what some assets are worth an independent expert can be used. Property can be valued by an expert - estate agents, pensions by CETV and / or a pension on divorce expert (PODE) report and so on. It is important to decide what needs a valuation by an independent expert and factor in the costs of these.

Pensions can be very valuable – equivalent or more than the value of the former martial home in some cases. Divorcing parties might hold different types of pensions (not like-for-like, so difficult to compare without an expert). Circumstances might be complex for example an age difference or pensions in payment. One party may have stayed at home to look after children.

@AnnaMagnani and @silentpool made some useful comment on this in this thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/divorce_separation/4664756-what-do-i-need-to-do-about-our-pensions?reply=121093079
When splitting the assets of a marriage…
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/18/section/25 applies
images.ctfassets.net/o8luwa28k6k2/2cpp2mEMwBJWJLuzTiTruB/b5397e7459154fad8927826a2c99acdd/section-25-expert-guide.pdf

The income, earning capacity, property, and other financial resource which each of the parties to the marriage has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future is taken into account. As I understand it, first consideration is given to the welfare (while a minor) of any child of the family who has not yet attained the age of eighteen.

The needs of each divorcing party are taken into account and as I understand it 50 / 50 is the starting point – so unequal shares based on circumstances and needs is possible, for example 60 / 40.

Full and frank financial disclosure is required and usually provided when Form E is exchanged. If after Form E there is missing information / evidence Questionnaires may be exchanged to retrieve it and if still missing after that Deficiencies are exchanged. A solicitor’s letter can be sent to retrieve financial information evidence. A Court Order can also be applied for to gain financial information / evidence / valuations that is missing / essential.

These offer a free advice session about pensions on divorce and separation www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/divorce-and-separation/divorce-or-dissolution-how-we-can-help-with-your-pension

Free advice line (busy so keep trying) rightsofwomen.org.uk
Guides on divorce and financial settlement
www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-apply-financial-order-without-help-lawyer

Pensions on divorce
www.sharingpensions.co.uk/penaudit3.htm
www.mediateuk.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-pensions-on-divorce/
www.nuffieldfoundation.org/news/new-good-practice-guide-addresses-shortfall-in-understanding-of-how-to-treat-pensions-on-divorce
Valuation of pensions – pensions on divorce expert report
www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk no relation – useful website
www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk/pension-data-collection/ templates for information required

Legal advice should be sought.
This link gives you an indication of hourly rate for solicitors
www.gov.uk/guidance/solicitors-guideline-hourly-rates
Some organisations offer free advice from solicitors and barristers rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-advice/ On their FAQs page…”Our Legal Officers and Volunteer legal advisors are all solicitors and barristers”.
Some family solicitors offer an in initial free consultation and some a fixed fee rather than hourly.
Some barristers can be directly instructed e.g., via Clerksroom Direct
Mumsnet suggest www.advicenow.org.uk/tags/separation-divorce-and-dissolution-civil-partnerships

I am in the CSP scheme and it too about 3 weeks to get the CETV. Pretty quick.

We didn’t engage an actuary though - no idea how long it takes them to do a report and get the necessary information.

Although they will take the value of state pensions into account, my understanding is that state pensions cannot be subject to pension sharing orders.

Depending on your other half’s age, they may find it more difficult to obtain a mortgage. Most lenders have age limits. If he were able to obtain one, it would likely need to be a much shorter term, which would push the repayment costs up.

You also only really need to fill out form E if your case is going to court and you can’t agree between yourselves. I would recommend you both engage solicitors, have an actuary do a report and then negotiate between yourselves using your solicitors for advice. It will be quicker and cheaper in the long - court takes a long time. However, I understand this isn’t always possible…..

Our actuary took a month or so to provide us with out results.

You must have a Form E if you want a Financial Order from a court which sets out the breakdown of the assets eg % of the house sale that each gets etc and it also prevents your ex from coming back in the future to make a further claim.

*A Financial Consent Order creates a legally binding financial agreement between parties that can be enforced in the event that a party breaches a term set out in the Order.

Once it is approved, it can be very difficult to change and neither party can make a new claim against the other.

Either party can take the agreement back to Solicitors/Court in order to enforce any of the terms under the agreement in the event that they are not fulfilled.

It creates a financial separation between the parties*

Yes you can get divorced without a Financial /Consent Order - although not getting a Financial Consent Order in place is unsatisfactory as it leaves both parties open to the potential of a financial claim being made by the other later on.

So last night I went on AdviceNow which is pinned at the top of this topic and it said you don’t need a financial order from the court if you both agree - you write the consent order (or get it done) and submit it. The issue would be if the court wasn’t happy with the content - does that make sense? 🤔

There are a couple of other forms that have to accompany the consent form.

That makes sense but if you read what I have posted above you will see why lawyers usually advise a Financial Order .

Suggest you read this:

www.mediateuk.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-a-financial-consent-order/

You don’t need a Form E to get a financial remedy order. The amount of disinformation on these threads is mind boggling.

If you are both familiar with each other’s finances and reach an agreement without initiating proceedings, it’s not required.

Form D81 is the one that gets filled out to accompany the consent order when it goes to the court for approval. Form D81 is not a full financial disclosure. It provides context to the order and shows the financial picture of each before and after the order is made. You are required to tell the court about your earnings, total assets and total liabilities. You do not need to give a detailed breakdown of your outgoings.

Even if you divorce and neither of you share anything and you each walk away with what you have, if you don’t have a financial order, legally you are still connected financially. You need a clean break order in place which dismisses future claims. This severs the financial link in law.