At what age (of the child) does a child access agreement end?

[far2oldforthis]

Ten years ago when I got divorced from my boys mother, their mum and I agreed access, majority with her, but plenty of time with me, which I'm presuming went to the court to be rubber stamped as part of the divorce. I don't know for sure as my main focus was pushing the divorce through.

Nowhere did we ever state that the access agreement would stay in place until a certain age, such as 18 years old. We have stuck to access agreement for years, but...

My boys are now the top end of 14 (15 in early 2023) and 16 years old (17 in early 2023). They live close to me and when they fall out with their mum they come to me and want to stay with me over night until things calm down (she still treats them like 10 year olds e.g. in the hot summer we just had, they'd be out with mates and had to be home for their evening meal at 6pm, we are talking about a 16.5 year old being ordered back home so he could sit at the table and just eat with just her and his brother who had also been summonsed). What I'm saying is arguments happen frequently.

When they come to me after an argument on those nights they should be at hers, we then get the emotional blackmail text messages from their mum. The texts say she will phone the police and have me arrested for kidnap, she texts them and says that if they stay with me don't bother come back to her as they won't see her again.

So I'd like to know at what age for the child does any access agreement end? When can an almost 17 year old choose where he wants to stay the night?

And how do I stop their mum from using emotional blackmail on the children - it should be noted that the last time the 14 year old fell out with his mum and stay with me, she phoned him and said she was calling the police - he replied 'go on then' put the phone down and went to bed. We know she won't call the police, but she just keeps using this emotional language.

Any help much appreciated

A formal court order ends when child is 16. But I'm not sure from what you've said whether you even have a formal order.

However the police will do absolutely nothing about a 14 year old wanting to stay with you. They will say it's a civil matter and not get involved

I suspect stvtheir ages they're old enough to mskecup their own minds, just be careful they're not playing you off against each other.

As others have said at their ages they can choose. But I disagree that asking they be home to eat dinner as a family is treating them as young children. That's a normal courtesy which extends to all in a household regardless of age, unless prior agreement has been reached. So back her up on that one.

I agree with titchy. Plain old respect and courtesy to turn up for a meal someone has provided and cooked for you. You sound a bit like my ex, trying to be the favourite/ cool parent instead of instilling healthy boundaries ... Mum has probably done all the raising and grunt work herself over the years. How great to be able to cherry pick the parenting and he the hero now they're older 🙄 those boys will know who has their back

Jadedbuthappy82.

To be clear. Unless you know the situation I wouldn't state "You sound a bit like my ex, trying to be the favourite/ cool parent instead of instilling healthy boundaries ... Mum has probably done all the raising and grunt work herself over the years. How great to be able to cherry pick the parenting and he the hero now they're older 🙄 those boys will know who has their back"

For clarity, some examples I could give

In the well over 10 years of my both my children being at school my ex-wife has NEVER sewn a name label into any of their clothes, nor has she sew a single button back on - I DO IT
My ex-wife does not iron their shirts or trousers before school but relies on putting clothes on radiators in the Winter or hanging them on the line in the Summer to get the creases out before handing them to the boys. I iron my sons clothes so that they look and feel the best at school.
I took my youngest to football matches all over the county, stood on the touchline in driving rain delivered him back, on her weekends whilst she went shopping, for lamp shades, a rug, paint etc etc.
I now drive and collect my youngest from the leisure centre three times a week even during her weeks because she refuses to support him.
It was me that turned up to every single carol service, every single sports day and every single school play so that my children could look out in to the audience and see someone they recognised. And yes it was me that went to the haberdashery place and bought grey fluffy material and sewed it to a t-shirt and trousers to make an outfit.
Oh and it was me that sewed every single swimming badge on to their towels so they could go into swimming lessons proud as punch that they'd swam 10 metres, 20 metres etc etc.
I drive and collect my eldest to his sports activity on a Friday evening on her weeks because my ex-wife says she's entitled to a glass of wine on Friday, and thus can't drive and anyway I'll do it if she doesn't - which I DO
I drive my eldest to work and collect him, even on her weekends.
I will as I have been doing, iron his work outfit this Friday and deliver it to my ex-wife's house so that he goes to work looking decent.
I drop my eldest's boys' girlfriend home because apparently my ex wife doesn't know that part of town even though for years she drove past the girls house to get to Laura Ashley.
She spent £6000 on a Summer holiday and came back to tell me she had no money to buy business shirts for my son to go to 6th form in. I had to give him my shirts to wear to go to school in. Oh and I even drove them to the airport and collected them because she had no money for a taxi National Express or anyone she could ask to help her.
The list goes on...

I instil healthy boundaries by means of dialogue with a 14.5 and 16.5 year old by asking what they are doing today, it's called compromise. If they are both happy to come home at 7pm I make the evening meal for 7pm rather than ordering them home at 6pm.

I paid my half of private education fees, sports lessons, clothing, and I even got a bill for half a home made birthday cake, to pay for half the kitkats, maltesers butter, sugar et etc which I duly paid. I pay my child maintenance in full on time every month and have always done so.

I'll stop writing this now, why? because I'm due to deliver to my ex-wife a boot full of kindling I chop sawed and split so that she can light the woodburner to keep my boys warm.

I am far from perfect, but what I am NOT is a cherry picking father, but you are correct in one thing "those boys will know who has their back" and for clarity that is ME and their MUM. (I refrain from adding a rolling eyes emoji)

And finally, she may have her faults which are, in my opinion, many and varied, but she is a damn good mum to those boys. So please, just stick to answering the question.

confessionstoday,

So if there is no formal court order, when can a child (14.5 and a 16.5 yrs old) choose where to live?

OP, you won’t get reasonable answers here. On Mumsnet, the non resident dad is almost always the villain. Someone will be along shortly to say that you are only telling half the story, how dare you list all those trivial tasks you do for them, you are a Disney Dad trying to curry favour with the boys.

Your ex’s behaviour sounds unreasonable . A 16 year old can feed himself if required so no need for her to demand he sits down for dinner at a set time. If he doesn’t turn up, he doesn’t eat. I doubt he’ll starve.

It is obviously emotionally abusive to threaten your sons with the police if they won’t come home exactly when she wants them to and if a woman wrote that her ex husband did this everyone would be condemning him. If a mother does it…well she’s sacrificed so much over the years, it’s understandable, there must be more to the story etc.

The 17 yo would not be under a court order. The 14 year old is a bit of a grey zone. Realistically as long as there is no abuse / evidence of parental alienation which doesn't sound like the case here the court would place alot of weight on the wishes of the child.

However this is a public forum where anyone can comment my advice would be to go see a solicitor. Do both kids want to live with you?

Regarding the police they would not do anything other then a welfare check on the kids. If you have a court order she would need to take you back to court for an enforcement order. But with the age of the kids I'm unsure what a court would do. Once again some legal advice would help.

Eastie77R,

If there's one thing that makes my blood boil is someone that has no idea what I do for my boys (and also what their mum does). They come on here with their rolling eyes emoji's.

Just a question, what does OP mean?

Coffee

From chats to the boys I've had they just want a 50/50 split. Of course she doesn't as that would impact the amount of money she gets paid. They also just want to be able to say they are popping over to see dad for a few hours then head back. I'm thinking about going back to the solicitor that did my side of the divorce as all the paperwork would be on file.

Thank you to 99% of the people on here for your advice, those that want to roll their eyes at me can move along, nothing more to see here.

Oooft she sounds similar to my mother. I moved to my Dads - a few days after I turned 14.

She did call the police - and according to my younger brother, was furious when she was told they couldn’t/wouldn’t do anything.

She then called Social Services, who also did nothing - as far as I’m aware anyway, they never spoke to me.

They did have a court order, but she’d never stuck to it, and after my Dad had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalised when I was 11, he didn’t go back for the umpteenth enforcement again, and I don’t blame him.

If she ever applied to court, I’m unaware of that too.

I got a new SIM card (back in the days when my phone was a Nokia 3210), didn’t give her my number, so she couldn’t hassle me.

Dad gave up trying to encourage me to see her (despite her blocking him and doing what is now known as PA my entire childhood) after a few months because I’d come back in hysterics every time, told her to leave me alone and promptly got me into therapy.

Oh how she wailed about what an awful child I was, and after everything she’d done for me (nothing, actually, beyond the absolute bare minimum parenting), and 20 years later, I still don’t speak to her.

So, as you're such a fantastic father and she's such a great mother, why did you feel the need to give all the background? If you truly wanted to know at what age an arrangement might end, why not just ask that simple question?

Your long winded narrative, where you initially painted her in a poor light before backtracking, tells a different story

Worst crime on mumsnet = being a man

Second worst crime on mumsnet = not giving all the info in the OP and being accused of drip feeding

He cant win can he?

It worries me how many people on there think that a mother can never, ever be a terrible parent.

I guess I could have just simply said "At what age (of the child) does a child access agreement end?" but knowing what I am discovering very fast on Mumsnet (now I know why it isn't call ParentsNet) I would have been hassled for not giving the back story.

I didn't back track on anything. I merely responded when someone stated "Mum has probably done all the raising and grunt work herself over the years. How great to be able to cherry pick the parenting and he the hero now they're older 🙄 those boys will know who has their back" It still make my blood boil just reading that quote!!!!

I once chatted to a teacher I bumped into after the boys had left that school, and she would describe the mums as the "Playground Mafia". Now I feel I like certain posters on her (rolls eyes) are the "MumsNet Mafia"

Yes they can choose where they live. I presume you pay maintenance and therefore she's probably panicking that if they are with you at least 50/50 you do not need to pay

I think you also need to be a bit more understanding of the “she worried she won’t get any money” scenario. Because if it’s 50/50 she still has to provide half the child care costs but loses the money she currently gets. I think anyone in that situation would be worried with the exception of very high earners.

Men get denigrated because it’s often the same old story. The fact you pick her apart but then say she’s a damn good mother is odd. However if you genuinely want the boys and they want you then she can’t stop it. I would find a solution where you don’t cut off her maintenance completely though. It will make for a more amicable family dynamic in the long run.

I pay maintenance to her and oh yes, she doesn't like the idea of a 50/50 split

Lights

The examples I gave of WHAT I DID for my boys was in response to this comment
"Mum has probably done all the raising and grunt work herself over the years. How great to be able to cherry pick the parenting and he the hero now they're older 🙄 those boys will know who has their back"

My ex-wife has not "done all the raising and grunt work"
I do not "cherry pick the parenting" I do
"those boys will know who has their back" yes they will

Again people are looking at it with their mother tinted glasses on.

The examples that I gave were not to bash her, in a nutshell, she feeds them home cooked meals, keeps them warm and dry and sends them to school in wrinkly clothes.

Just a question. If it was the other way around and she was paying me maintenance would you also tell her to find a way to carry on paying me?

I have always without questions paid the maintenance I am required to pay. That amount is based on my income and the number of nights I have the boys. If any of those variables change I would expect the calculation to change. Therefore if I had them for 50% of the time and the CMS calculated I owed her £0 then that is what I would pay her. Why would I need to continue to pay her?

If that income stream from me was reduced or eliminated she would simply have to cut her cloth accordingly (as we are all doing at the moment), and maybe not spend £6,000 on a holiday perhaps?

I await the MumsNet Mafia onslaught.

I'm discovering the amount of people on here that think a mother can do no wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!

First, not sure if your question "what does OP mean" has been answered. It means original poster, ie you. There is a list of acronyms somewhere on this site.
If you had agreed the arrangements for the DCs then I imagine there was no order. There is a "no order principle" which means that the court will not make an order unless it's necessary. In your case, as you remember no dispute, it wouldn't have been necessary.
Section 91(10) of the Children Act 1989 provides that orders last until the age of 16 (unless they specify otherwise in which case it's 18).

If there was an order, things have clearly moved on and need to be reviewed. Either by consent or by asking the court to make a new order. The schedule set out in most orders made when children are young get changed by agreement between the parents as time go on and the children are old enough to express their wishes.

If the DM won't agree to discuss a new schedule then you need to make an application for a child arrangements order. You have to try at least 1 mediation session or "mediation information and assessment meeting" before you are allowed to do that. If you are trying to give effect to the 14yo's wishes then your ex would be mad to resist, but might. The 16yo will vote with his feet.

Take a deep breath and try to reign in your anger and frustration at some of the replies here. You've asked for help and this won't do you any favours in getting it.

One of my DDs recently went to live with her father, and now we have one child each (for now).

He said 'if you were paying me it'd be £, and if I were paying you it would be ££ so I will pay you the difference.

It reflects the disparity of income in the two homes.

TooTrusting,

Many many thanks for your help and to all that have responded constructively.

And yes, I must (I will) take that deep breath.

I think you also need to be a bit more understanding of the “she worried she won’t get any money” scenario. Because if it’s 50/50 she still has to provide half the child care costs but loses the money she currently gets

she won’t have to provide half the “childcare costs”?

if the children aren’t there she won’t be paying their use of gas and electric. She won’t be paying food bills for two teenagers for half the week.

the non resident parent is now paying those costs himself, rather than giving the money to the resident parent.

so costs will be equal. Which is why no cm payable

TooTrasting,

You mention that there is no order (I think you are right) but then mention what happens if there is an order, such as an order lasts until they are 16.

If there is no order at what age for the child does the 'voluntary agreement' (I'm not sure of the official name) stop?
Do I have to go back to court and renegotiate this 'voluntary agreement'?
If the DM (dependents mum?) doesn't want to change the voluntary agreement, and I'm 100% sure she won't, I guess I need to go to court to make the application for a child arrangements order - through a solicitor or can I just fill in some forms at the court?