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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Ex drunk around kids - can I have full custody?

13 replies

ReallygoodyesImfine · 15/09/2022 10:16

Hi,

I have 3 children aged 9, 7, 4. Last night, not for the first time, my 9 year old sent me a WhatsApp and asked me to go collect them because their dad was drunk. Apparently, he was drunk at the school pick-up.

This is not the first time and the realisation is that he is not going to get better soon. The promises he makes about stopping drinking and all his family's interventions are not working.

I would like to have full custody of the children because they are not safe and they don't want to be with him but I'm not sure what to do and how to go about it.

This happened before the summer and the solicitor I called seemed to push me away saying there is no such thing as full custody.

I simply want the right to tell the school that only I can pick them up. The school say that until they have official documentation that I am the only person who can pick them up from school, he can turn up at any time to take them and they cant stop him.

I've tried to research but I'm confused what I am asking for and where I should go.

Can anyone advise what I should do next, please?

Thanks

OP posts:
Tigerstripes1 · 15/09/2022 10:24

You literally can just stop contact and await them to take you to court for access.

School are technically correct however, my schools said they would call me if he arrived and stall as long as possible until I arrived. I used to be first to pick up after school to ensure no dramas and when it was really bad, would collect 5 minutes early from the door. School were supportive of this.

Custody in the UK isn't actually a thing. Its all about access. You can take him to court to have it official that the children live with you full time however he also has the right to access and they are likely to put a plan in place for him to have some kind of access at the same time (they will do assessments and likely put supervised in a contact center for something like alcohol issues if proven). It completely depends on how likely it is he will take you to court on which option you chose. I chose keep my head down and ignore all access requests as he was unlikely to ever take me to court. He eventually did something awful and social services advised no contact and told the school to phone police if arrived.

maiafawnly · 15/09/2022 10:29

If there is a court access order in place its harder. However, i was in a similar situation where my children, then aged 12 8 and 6 contacted me during an overnight visit that he was drunk and passed out. I asked for someone else to go to his house who were social worker and police officer, to make sure the children were ok. They confirmed he was drunk and removed the children and brought them home. I then told him he was no longer having overnight access, only day time. We had no court ordered agreement in place though. He basically said if i cant have them overnight im not having them at all. This was 2015 and hes yet to see them again after that night. After the incident i spoke to the school and they agreed that he wont be collecting them from school - not that he ever did before anyway. But if you have a court order in place its not quite so simple.

DenholmElliot1 · 15/09/2022 12:57

He's not picking them up from school in a car is he?

GreenManalishi · 15/09/2022 13:10

If you don't have a court order I'd pick them up from school. Get there early, let him know you'll be doing it and why, let the kids know that you'll be doing it. Tell him, in writing, that you have concerns for the children while in his care due to his acohol abuse and you will be willing to negotiate access if and when he addresses that.

The rights' arent' of the parents to see the children, they are of the children to see the parent. He would have to take you to court to challenge you. Gather all the evidence you can in the meantime, texts, emails etc, dont' waste your time with phonecalls, get it all in writing.

Speak with the school and tell them your concerns, and ask for their help.

altmember · 15/09/2022 18:43

Report him to social services. They'll probably say that you need to pick them up from school yourself so you can then ensure yes in a fit state when you hand then kids over (or refuse to if necessary). Also make sure school are fully aware. If they notice he's pissed they could phone police and decline to hand over the kids to him (but they would have to judge him dangerously pissed, so if he's still functioning rationally they couldn't intervene, eg smelling of alcohol).

It should help you with getting full custody if ss have been involved. Frustratingly, they would need to deem the kids at risk of harm to be able to conclude that he shouldn't have unsupervised contact. And being drunk doesn't break the threshold for that, he'll need to be totally inebriated.

You can also get personal breathalysers that Bluetooth to a phone app and upload results to the cloud, so you can monitor his sobriety while he's having unsupervised contact with the kids. Not foolproof, but might give you some reassurance.

As you can probably tell, I've been there, and it's written into our child arrangements order that ex is supposed to provide regular breathalyser readings. Never has done, but the threat of it has managed to keep them sober. Also got a clause that the kids only have contact when I deem ex's mental health to be good enough. I could enforce it at at any time if needed (haven't had to yet, but we've been pretty close).

ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 13:49

I suppose I just find it conflicting that I have to wait for him to talk me to court.

The other thing I don't like about him taking me to court is that his parent would get involved and will start funding it for him because he is not capable. I've been so relieved to have them out of my life but if it came to court, Im sure they would get involved.

The school are supportive of the situation and have seen him drunk. All the teachers are on alert at hometime to not hand the kids to him if they suspect he is, but otherwise it's worrying that he can turn up to school and take them at any point - without some kind of official order they can't stop him.

I think the official order - whatever that would be? - is what I need to feel like I have control and the kids are safe.

So Im wondering if I have to go to social services with this and what that entails....

OP posts:
ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 13:55

Sorry that your ex never even bothered to try with your kids.

So far my ex has quietly disappeared since this last incident. I told him I was picking the kids up and they didn't want to see him. He said "ok fine" and has disappeared, most likely drinking. Towards me, I worry more about when is sober. He is an angry, bitter and manipulative man. I expect at some point he'll come out and get nasty. I don't trust him at all.

That's why I want some kind of official order for me to put a stop to his behaviour. The kids simply need to know they live with me and we can maybe arrange daytime visits to him on that basis.

Could I ask why you say that "If there is a court access order in place its harder." What does that mean please?

OP posts:
ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 13:56

No, he does not drive. He had to sell his car a couple of months ago - a huge blessing in disguise.

OP posts:
ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 14:03

Thanks @GreenManalishi for this advice.

I have been collecting evidence for over a year. My oldest sends pictures of the alcohol he has found in the house and I have WhatsApp messages from him when he is asking for me to collect him describing what is going on.

Are you also saying that by writing my concerns to him, I have the right to deny his access until he sorts himself out? At what point do we deem he is ok though? This summer he seemed to have been sober for about 7 weeks. He becomes quite aggressive about his right to see them because he is sober - but then, of course, he started drinking again.

If he took me to court, how would that play out in court? As in he has to prove he is sober and I prove the children are not safe. Should I get social services get involved? And where does mediation fall in all this - people keep telling me I need to do mediation but I'm not happy about it because he is so manipulative and convincing.

I think I just want an order to give me the clear full parental responsibility to decide when they can see him for daytime visits.

OP posts:
ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 14:12

Thanks for this @altmember

So if I report him to social services, what happens next?

If they have been involved, how do I then take this to court? Or does he take me to court to get access back?

School are aware and on alert not to hand them to him if they suspect he is not fit. This week they all had new teachers and so they didn't realise. He also puts on a cap and glasses when he is drunk. The kids knew immediately because of this ridiculous cover but the teachers didn't know.

Once at home he'll tell the kids to get in their pyjamas and tells them to go to bed extremely early because he can no longer barely function. He lays down on the sofa or his bed and falls asleep. It's so dangerous and the kids are upset by it. I found out my oldest has to care for the other two and help them to bed. Surely that should be deemed as the children being at risk of harm? If one of my kids were to get a fever in the night, a fire, or have an accident - many scenarios - he is not able to care for them.

OP posts:
ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 14:19

@altmember when you say you had it written into the child arrangments order about the Bluetooth breathalyser readings, how did this come about? Is that after going to social services?

I think the clause you mention about his mental health being in a good state is a good thing to include. Because of course, his mental health is mixed up in all this. Much as I don't like the man, I'm also wary that he is not in a good place. ....

.... At the back of my mind in all this, the other worry is this will push him into doing something stupid. But unfortunately, I'm at a place now where I can't try to manage everything - the kid's safety undoubtedly is my priority. That's why I just want something official to draw a line under it all.

OP posts:
maiafawnly · 16/09/2022 22:51

ReallygoodyesImfine · 16/09/2022 13:55

Sorry that your ex never even bothered to try with your kids.

So far my ex has quietly disappeared since this last incident. I told him I was picking the kids up and they didn't want to see him. He said "ok fine" and has disappeared, most likely drinking. Towards me, I worry more about when is sober. He is an angry, bitter and manipulative man. I expect at some point he'll come out and get nasty. I don't trust him at all.

That's why I want some kind of official order for me to put a stop to his behaviour. The kids simply need to know they live with me and we can maybe arrange daytime visits to him on that basis.

Could I ask why you say that "If there is a court access order in place its harder." What does that mean please?

Dont be sorry. My kids lives are 100 times better now they arent living on edge wondering what mood hell be in when drunk

By harder i mean i could literally say to me ex you arent having them overnight as there was no contact order in place. If there had been i couldnt have said that. I would have had to go back to court. I figured the same about his family, they had no other grand children and were very well off. But they also washed their hands of the kids and havent seen them since either when they most definitely had the funds to do so. None of that side of their family have seen or spoken To them since.

Its been a long time now, but our lives are so much better. initially my ex husband launched and attack on me. Id get email after email of abuse and how evil i was, but it was never about the kids, it was always because id had the audacity to leave. He never asked how they were, for pictures, never mind asked to see them. Just attacked my character. I ignored it. Never responded and he soon got bored of it.

Id suggest getting legal advice if u have a contact order in place. If you have nothing and can prove he is drunk whilst solely caring for the children. Stand your ground and see what he does. He could give up too.

altmember · 16/09/2022 22:57

You don't wait for him to take you to court - you'd need to take him. And at the same time you'd want social services involved to back you.

My situation was slightly different to yours - I was the non resident parent at the time (although we close to 50/50 shared care). Ex was drinking to manically depressive state and then overdosing on whatever meds they had to hand (usually antidepressants). Every time ex got admitted to hospital after o/d ing, social services would get notified. But the kids were always with me when ex was getting to that state (but was drinking moderate - heavily when the kids were in their care). But I'd have to keep the kids with me for 2- 3 weeks each time whilst ex recovered from each o/d. I told social services this was unfair on everyone - the kids literally didn't know whether they were coming or going, and I couldn't just drop everything and put my work on hold for 3 weeks every time ex played up (I began to suspect half the reason for it was that ex had realised it was the only way left that they could control me).

For best part of a year this cycle repeated itself, and every time social services intervened they deemed the kids not at risk because they were with with me. Social services continued to support ex through this, and suggested to me that I take legal advice about applying for full custody of the kids. Spoke to a family solicitor who told me I'd got no chance of winning custody battle because social services report wasn't recommending that the kids be taken from the care of the resident parent. Felt like I was just getting fobbed of by solicitor and social services, both passing the buck for taking action.

Eventually things came to a head when ex got hospitalised with another o/d, as usual social services phoned me to check that the kids were ok and in my care. But this time I made the difficult decision to face up to social services and say that I wasn't going to take the kids (they were at school whilst this was unfolding). I had to call their bluff - the only way SS would escalate things is if I wasn't there as the back stop to steady the ship. Of course, I did take care of the kids as needed, but it made ss take things seriously - the next day they told me I had to keep the kids in my care indefinitely, that ex wasn't to have unsupervised access and that I had to apply to court for custody.

I got that in writing from SS, then completed the court paperwork and drove straight over to the court to register the application. But because of the circumstances - I filled in the form to say that it was an urgent application, and I applied for a Prohibited Steps Order alongside the Child Arrangements Order. In the PHO I requested that ex couldn't collect the kids from school, have unsupervised contact with them, or take them out of the county.

I was a bit shocked when the court kicked into action - literally while I was lodging the application at the court admin desk, they noticed it was urgent and within 10 mins I was sat in a court room in front of a judge. I explained it to them, and the judge was fully in agreement with my request, so I left the court with my PHO and temporary CAO for exactly what I'd asked. Week or so later had to go back to court (and ex was served with papers and asked to attend also). This is because the judges don't like to make orders like that without the other party/parent being present.

This time we got a female judge who was absolutely awful - most sexist, nastiest hateful judge imaginable. She couldn't stand the fact that she was having to serve a CAO to take the kids from a mother's care and into their dad's, and she made that very clear. If I'd not got very clear written request from SS for that action the judge wouldn't have ordered it.

Social services continued to be involved (rather than CAFCASS), because they'd had an open case when the court application was made. Ultimately the made recommendation to the family court that kids were to reside with me full time, and ex could have them every other weekend (unsupervised), when she was well enough. I think it was me that came up with the breathalyser request (and I bought and paid the the bloody thing), but for the final hearing the judge wrote that into the final order. Ex didn't like any of it, but because SS had turned on her, she didn't have a leg to stand on so just had to agree to it all. Of course ex blamed it all on social services - 'they had it in for' her blah blah.

So that's why I would strongly suggest you get social services involved. Best way might be to have a word with the school and ask them to make a referral - on the basis that they've observed dad in a pissed state trying to collect the kids from school. You could also ask the school to phone the police if he tries it again (without a court order the school can't not hand over the children to a parent/guardian), and if you end up in any kind of face to face argument with him in a drunk state then you should take the opportunity to call the police too.

The more negative stuff on record the better for your court application. I also had school back me completely in the custody application - SS liase with the school and their investigation includes reports/statements from the school. Their school's safeguarding lead (also my child's teacher), was very critical of my ex in their report.

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