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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Estranged child

19 replies

SimplyTrying · 18/07/2022 15:16

Hi All,

I hope I have posted this in the correct section, if not please advise / move it admin.

As with many parental things this could be a long post but I think I would like to ask some basic questions in the hope this helps me and my daughter.

First a quick status:

I have been divorced for 6 years
I have two children by the same mother, son 22 and daughter 13.5
I have no communication with my ex at all currently, this is her choice.
My son lives with my after being asked to leave home at 19
I have a good relationship with my son but only Whatsapp messages with my daughter
I ceased a court case for access early this year after finding out that my daughter had thoughts of self-harm and I was told this was due to the pressure of the court case I was perusing.
I was seeing my daughter up to the age of 10 quite regularly but difficult at times as I was rebuilding my life, new home and getting over the loss of the family.
My ex asked me to leave in October 2015 the next day after confirming she didn't want to discuss things or try and she still wanted me to leave I left crying with two plastic bags and never went back.
In the first 5 years I had basic communication with my ex but this deteriorated as time passed but this has completely stopped now.

I'd like comments on if you think that not supporting a relationship with a father is a form of alienation? What I mean by this is my ex simply says "it's not my job to help you, if XXX wants to see you she can, her choice" I feel my daughter has picked up on this over the years, the negative attitude towards myself and now mirrors it. but I might be wrong?

Regards

Steve

P.S. I am sure there will be loads of questions and I am happy to answer them.

OP posts:
titchy · 18/07/2022 15:26

Well what have you done to try and have a relationship with your dd? How involved are you in her school for example? Do you get reports, go to parents evening? What happened three years ago - you say it was difficult at times because you were rebuilding your life. What did that look like?

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to be saying it was your ex's responsibility to ensure your relationship with your dd continued and are blaming her because it's fallen apart.

LurpakAspirations · 18/07/2022 15:37

I was seeing my daughter up to the age of 10 quite regularly but difficult at times as I was rebuilding my life, new home and getting over the loss of the family.

What stands out to me here is that it seems like you failed to prioritise your daughter during this time. While I understand and am sympathetic to the toll on your mental health, I don't think there's an excuse for not maintaining father/daughter time.

I speak as a daughter who grew up in similar circumstances.

Did you just not see her for periods of time? Were you flaky and inconsistent? Did you make promises to her that you didn't keep?

LurpakAspirations · 18/07/2022 15:41

Ps I think you putting her health before your court case is wonderful btw (again speaking from personal experience). If you keep reaching out and letting her know door is always open, without any pressure, then she should come around but if she has experience of you being inconsistent in your efforts (and remember to see it from a child's point of view), then you probably have a lot of ground to make up as well.

MintJulia · 18/07/2022 16:16

What do you mean by 'rebuilding your life?' Does that mean having other women at your home when your dd was there. Spending time with other people rather than focusing on your dd. Generally prioritising yourself rather than your DD.

No, I don't think it is up to your ex to persuade your DD to see you. That's your job. Have you done all of the following....


  • Communicated regularly with her via email/social etc

  • Spent time chatting on phone and been genuinely interested

  • Been good humoured, not aired your grievances in front of her or moaned about her mum

  • Remembered and sent her birthday cards and presents

  • Been to parents evenings, school plays, sports days etc

  • Asked to see her regularly and thought about what she would like to do

  • Been there for her when she was poorly

  • Run her back and forth to swimming lessons, dance classes etc

  • Watched her at weekend activities

  • Been consistently there for her

None of these cost much. If you have the money, also....

  • get her involved in decorating her own room at your house, so she feels at home

  • take her on holiday

And most of all, not palmed her off on your new woman because you 'have to work'.

If not, there is your answer !

SimplyTrying · 20/07/2022 13:48

@titchy
I now this might seem strange to you but when you are suddenly homeless and without a family that you loved, all out of the blue, your head is not quite on track, with thoughts of suicide because you don't see the point in living, trying to keep a job as that would be the last straw. Attending parent’s evenings probably isn’t top of your list. Yes, of course you can say "well there you go" easy to say when you’re not in that position.
After the initial shock of everything and when I stabilised myself which is absolutely the right thing to do I had regular contact with my daughter, picking her up from school on Fridays, taking her out most Saturdays. Yes I missed some but not without letting my ex know. I had to buy a new home, decorate it and all the other things that a person needs to do having left his home and took nothing from it. This carried on for two years and then one day it all stopped. I took my daughter to the school fair; she wanted to go to a ice-cream shop after so I said we must leave as it closes at 5:30. she agreed and we went. the next day I messaged my ex to say "I'll be there at 12 as normal" she stated my daughter didn't want to see me as I had not let her see the donkey's, I knew nothing of the donkey's and explained this to my ex, she just repeated "she does not want to see you as she's upset" this was the start of what I feel was a campaign of alienation. by the way, my daughter had just turned 10, the age when courts listen to the child. Coincidence? FYI my ex is a solicitor!
There is further evidence that I believe show her intentions, when on relatively good terms (because I believe this suited me ex as a fight for access when my daughter was 8 would have been a no brainer) and just a few months after I was asked to leave. I was in my old house sat at the table and on the table was her will, in plain sight. I read it and took a photograph as I could not believe what it stated. One of the first questions was who will be the parent or guardian in the event of your death, she had put her sister! yet at this time I was seeing both my children regularly!
I'm saying it's every parent’s responsibility to help their children have a good relationship with the other parent, for the sake of the child!

@LurpakAspirations
As you can see in the above answer I did maintain good access to both my children but I was rebuilding my life which from time to time got in the way, I never broke a promise to either of my children and always notified my ex if I could not see them.

@MintJulia

No, I never had any other woman around my dd

Communicated regularly with her via email/social etc.

Yes but she as I say is estranged, a very telling thing happened in court, I didn't realise at the time how telling this was but I give my daughter £10 per week religiously via a Gohenry card. at one point when my dd was not communication at all, she suddenly asked for more money via whatsapp, I asked her what for and gave it her, she then re-blocked me, this went on for a few weeks, unblocking me, asking me for extra money and re-blocking me.
When it was read out in court, everyone was perplexed as this shows she happy to communicate but maybe shows she feels she can't. my ex when questioned simply said "no I didn't know about this, maybe Mr XX failed to pay her some weeks" this I believe shows her mind-set, instead of thinking positive about me and maybe why our dd was behaving this way she simply tried to accuse me of doing something wrong.

Spent time chatting on phone and been genuinely interested
We don't talk

Been good humoured, not aired your grievances in front of her or moaned about her mum
Yes, never after first 6 months, but we did continue to see each other for a further 1.5 years without issue

Remembered and sent her birthday cards and presents
Always, but I get nothing back

Been to parents evenings, school plays, sports days etc
This I have to admit I feel would not go down well with my daughter so I do not do it, I do not want to suddenly appear and cause her stress.

Asked to see her regularly and thought about what she would like to do
Absolutely, when me and ex were commui!

Been there for her when she was poorly
My ex never tells me anything, we do not communicate and this is her wish not mine!

Run her back and forth to swimming lessons, dance classes etc.
I taught my daughter to swim, I took both the kids out throughout the marriage most weekends, all the parties, all the sports days my ex often did not (98% of the time)

Watched her at weekend activities
Whilst married yes

Been consistently there for her
Yes and to this day via Whatsapp I tell her I'm there for her no matter what and that I love her and her brother.

get her involved in decorating her own room at your house, so she feels at home
take her on holiday
She will not come to my home, I do not see her!

And most of all, not palmed her off on your new woman because you 'have to work'. I never palmed her off, but sometimes I had to re-arrange due to my situation.
NEVER

OP posts:
TobySpaniel · 20/07/2022 14:30

I wrote out a long reply speaking from experience of being in a similar situation to your daughter when younger, but I don't think you'd actually listen and take on board my suggestions.
You seem to have come on here wanting us to tell you you're in the right and your ex and daughter are being unreasonable, but from your post and replies you sound hard work and your daughter probably took a deliberate step back as felt you weren't interested in her any more and could do without the drama

MintJulia · 20/07/2022 15:27

OK, OP, I accept you have genuinely tried.

So put the question back on yourself. Why do you think your DD does not want to see you? Most 13yos are pretty good at getting their own way. Teenage hormones hit and cause arguments with the parent closest to home. The non-resident parent becomes the immediate alternative. Any teenager can get access to social media. I'd stand back and wait for her to contact you. Make yourself easy to find and bide your time.

Why were you going to court? She is old enough to make her own decisions, so the court won't insist she sees you. What was there to be gained?

Honestly, I'd keep up with the interest and invitations, and let her come to you.

LurpakAspirations · 20/07/2022 18:21

Thank you for clarifying, op.

I don't think any of us can easily say whether your ex has encouraged parental alienation or not. We can't know what she may have said behind closed doors. It sounds like she's followed the rules, but not gone beyond that.

Have you ever spoken to your son about it? I just wonder if he'd be able to shed some light on your daughter's reluctance.

Your dd will be in her teens soon and it's a prime age for confronting parents so I'd keep the doors open, keep reaching out and letting her know she can talk about anything. You might well find that when she's a bit more independent she reaches out to you.

LikeADogWithABone · 21/07/2022 08:09

I was going to ask about your son too?

Don't give up trying?

Do you live close?

amapama · 22/07/2022 15:04

Do you see your ex as the default parent? When you said this but difficult at times as I was rebuilding my life, new home and getting over the loss of the family. it made me think that you see yourself as separate and not part of a package with her?

Apologies if I'm wrong, but women don't get to do this. When I started divorce proceedings I became very ill mentally, suicidal and couldn't function most of the time. But I kept doing what I had to do for the children - school runs, appointments, taxiing them to activities, parents days etc. I didn't see dumping them on their dad while I "rebuilt my life" as an option, they WERE a part of my life and I felt responsible for them.

You may have gone wrong with this. I would say at this point your best bet is to hang in there and make sure she knows that you're there for her. Continue to send birthday cards/gifts, remember special occasions (end of primary school etc) and wish her luck on those, it'll let her know she's always in your thoughts.

Amum4444 · 23/08/2022 18:18

Didn’t the ex ask him to leave? Didn’t the child threaten self harm as a result of his efforts to pursue through a court case for access. Give this man a break!

SimplyTrying · 24/08/2022 12:45

Thanks @Amum4444 , yes it's hard. tbh after my first few posts I felt like lots of people already had it in their heads I must have caused the issues. My honesty and openness probably does not help as when you admit to your failings people jump on them.
What I was trying to ask was what people felt about a parent that actively excludes the other parent from the child’s life and the that child’s home?

I know my name is never mentioned around my daughter, I simply don't exist, she does not get emotional support to communicate with me, you know the little things that help a child think "it's OK to communicate" with an estranged parent. the "he loves you and misses you" "aww that’s a nice message, why not send one back" etc.
I believe my daughter feels or even knows my ex has major issues with me even though we never speak and it's been 6 years since we split, she has a new man in her life and house so she should be happy, this atmosphere around my existence I feel reflects or my daughters attitude towards . All my messages since this started have never had replies unless it's about money and even then I do not even a get "thanks" just the request, I never get a thanks for presents at Christmas or Birthdays and never a father's day card or birthday card for me.
I feel my ex has eliminated me from her life but this also has done the same for my daughter. my daughters has become like my ex an emotional vacuum and this I feel will cause issues in the future for her relationships, when faced with feelings she cannot resolve she will simply go silent leaving her friends / boyfriend’s or even family unable to connect with her and help.
My ex always said "it's for my daughter to decide, it's not my job to help you" but this is itself is doing something, it's telling the child and everyone "I hate him and I won't be happy if you talk to him" she even does this to our son who lives with me, she point blank refuses to talk to him about his feelings. What normal parent refuses to listen to their child or how that child feels?
Someone involved in the court case called this "emotional abuse" allowing a young child to make decisions without any support, and the child knowing the primary parent hates the estranged parent, they pick up on these things.
Anyway, It’s always hard as you cannot put all the things that have happened and I cannot give you both sides, just my interpretation, so it's always hard for anyone to comment. I just know there is no good reason it has to be like this and the most important thing is my daughter growing up without a father that loves and cares for her and without emotional support a child needs
Thanks Steve

Just one last note to @TobySpaniel I think your post shows more about your attitude than mine.

OP posts:
Another2022 · 24/08/2022 14:32

I think I kind

MissyB1 · 24/08/2022 14:42

Keep in sending the birthday and Christmas presents. Don’t bombard her with messages but perhaps now and again send a letter or card to tell her you are thinking about her? Tell her you are respecting her wishes but you will always be there for her if / when she needs you.
That’s all you can do. It’s hard and I’m sorry you are in this position.

Another2022 · 24/08/2022 14:44

Posted way to soon - need an edit button!!!

I was going to say I kind of see where you’re coming from. If you’re ex could be civil and encouraged a relationship with you then maybe you and your daughter would be getting along. Also, she held all the parenting cards and there’s only so much you can do to force the contact.

I think it’s always shit when one parent can’t stand the other one and ‘get over themselves’ for the kids but it happens. You may be an abuser and she has good reason to be like this, or she could just be spiteful and knows how to play the game.

I always thought of proper a alienation as much more obvious and direct.

TheLoupGarou · 24/08/2022 14:53

I think you still sound very angry with your ex and the circumstances of your separation - without knowing the ins and outs that might or might not be justified. I don't think blaming your ex now for the lack of contact or describing your 13 year old daughter as becoming an 'emotional vacuum' (wtf dude) is going to help anyone here.

You can't change the past - all you can do is try to build a relationship with your daughter going forward - leave the door open and let her know you'll always be there for her if she needs you. If you are putting money into her go Henry account then do it on a regular basis - no extras, be consistent - once it's spent it's spent. I wonder if some sort of family therapy might be beneficial here to help you all move forward in a positive way?

Thornethorn · 24/08/2022 14:58

As hard as it's been, it's super unfortunate that you missed access visits, weekend activities and school parents evenings. You may feel overwhelmed by circumstances but your dd will have experienced your sudden abandonment. Her life shattered while you were rebuilding yours. However valid for reasons for going flakey (and yes you were, cancelling access visits) the ramifications are broadly similar in terms of relational damage. You obviously have a daughter who is hurting but you seem more interested in finding the bad guy and being right.

Something about your tone makes me think there's more to this story. On the face of it I think you're being unreasonable and you are probably not being alienated. You have no evidence of it at all. We can't really know or even guess.

WhatNoRaisins · 24/08/2022 15:25

I think ultimately all you can do is try to see how this situation panned out from your daughter's perspective. She may feel abandoned, you may have been doing your best but her feelings are still there.

SimplyTrying · 25/08/2022 12:22

@MissyB1

Yes, this is what I have done and will do, I just feel if her mother could think about our daughter instead of herself for once things would be so much better for our daughter, I cannot imagine living without any emotional support as a
child and as a father my natural instinct is to protect her from this.

@Another2022

Yes, it's a very subtle form of abuse, ex being a solicitor has a mind wired for being able to never put herself in a position where you can blame her, she just says "I'm not doing anything" however if the child ran into a street and the parent did nothing everyone would say that’s neglect.
My ex never said thanks or hugged or even initiated a kiss in 20 years, and there are lots of instances where a normal person would have, these are big and small. Buying first class flights for her because she moaned about not being able to sleep. Flowers, filling her car on a rainy evening so in the morning she wouldn't have to, warming her car up before she went to work.

The first time I was hugged after the split I cried, because it felt good to have someone hug me, this was very telling for me.
There was another more recent incident, my mother died two years ago I told my son, who in turn told his mother as I wanted my daughter to know.
Surprise, Surprise nothing not a “oh, I’m sorry to hear that” not even to my son, my son said it was like he had not said it!
Since the divorce I have seen the person and mother she is and she only thinks of herself above even her children.

@TheLoupGarou

Angry is an understatement! Wouldn’t any parent feel this way if they saw someone is emotionally abusing their child! As was spotted by a professional during the case, in fact it was that that made the psychologist get involved, this was a slip up by my ex to someone who she thought had no weight in the case. The woman who saw total lack of empathy and emotional support to their daughter looked like she had seen a murder when she came back in to me. And all my ex did was complain about that person saying she was not supposed to comment just supervise. What an appalling attitude not to ask yourself “maybe I did something wrong” but instead try to silence that person or dismiss their opinion. I feel my ex is an emotional void and unfortunately my daughters defence to this is to become the same to protect her feelings. So yes “WTF” she had become an emotional vacuum, what would you call it?

The money is 100% regular, but when the only form of communication I get after sending a really nice message and telling her I am always there for her is "well buy this for me then at £118" you can imagine how it felt, how could I not give her what she asked for and not feel I was pushing her further away? But I didn’t, I said "OK maybe I can advance you your spending money" "Use what you have saved (£78) and I'll but the rest to it" and what I got back was “never mind”. Leaving me feeling like sh*t

The past is the past, but my ex is does not think that way she is determined to cut my out of her life as she does not want my daughter saying "dad says this".
It was stated in the psychologist report she was the controlling one not me, I feel that my ex believes if I am involved in my daughter’s life she will lose control and my daughter will start to have a mind of her own.
The ex point blank refuses any therapy even the one suggested by the psychiatrist as part of the court procedure

Just a point I had not thought of, why was my daughter even worried about the court case, she never attended etc? If my ex had been a good parent my daughter should have no real worries about it or even really known about it as she would have been emotionally supported during this period. I think this again proves my ex was putting the pressure on my daughter and using it as a lever. My daughter had thoughts of self-harm 12 months before the final hearing, my ex never told me!!! I knew nothing of it until the final hearing, how can any parent not tell the other parent how their daughter is feeling allowing the child suffer for a further 12 months just to benefit her case!!!

@Thornethorn
You might need to re-read my posts, in the first two years I was quiet regular, seeing her three times a week but only occasionally missing agreed visits and always letting them know. maybe just maybe me ex said "your dads not coming" instead of "your dad has to go and sort a new mortgage out but he said he will see you tomorrow instead, he says he's sorry but will make it up to you" but I'm sure you will say I she would have done that or it’s not her responsibility to. it's so easy for the primary parent to manipulate the situation and I have evidence she did.

Part of the final hearing and whilst talking to the psychologist my daughter stated several things that showed me my ex was manipulating the situation. Just one instance was when I took my daughter to wales for three days, everything went fine however it was first time my daughter had been away from her mother and I noticed on the second day she was a little apprehensive, we talked and I asked "would you prefer to return home instead of staying the second night" she said yes and the rest of the day went really well. I phone her mum and told her DD wanted to return home as she was home sick and everything was good.

Whilst talking to the psychologist my daughter said "we went away and my dad didn't want to be with me as he brought me home early" this is what my ex does, manipulate, but she knows there is absolutely no way she can get caught for it. She should have reminded my daughter what happened instead she chose to allow my daughter to believe I had not wanted to be with her!
No evidence hmmm, is a mother that wilfully does not inform the other parent that their daughter is having thoughts of self-harm for 12 months and the other parent only finding out because it was read out in court! Especially as my ex knew the moment I heard that I would stop as I did?
There is some simple fact that disproves any argument you have that I am anything other than quite calm and empathetic.

My ex wife asked me to leave on a Saturday and on the Sunday I left heart broken with just two bags and never went back, never shouted, the police where never called. Are these the actions of anything other than a calm person and a unusually thoughtful person? These are actions of a man that listened and even though it was killing him, did what the other person asked.

After the split she said if you don't give me the saving I can't afford to divorce you, I gave them her even though this is the last thing I wanted.
Year one, I mentioned "are you going abroad" she said "well we would have gone to Disney USA as we always did but I can't afford to“ with a sad look, I offered to pay for her and my daughter, but more importantly she actually took it without a thank you or a smile.

But trust me the list is endless however as always and I do understand why it's the man’s fault. I too have heard so many horrific stories and 90% of the time I felt it was the man to blame.

@WhatNoRaisins

Yes I have resigned myself to this, however to feel your daughter has no real emotional support in her life is hard, especially as a teenager.

To everyone:

I can see this is pointless, I was asking if people though it possible that not supporting a child emotionally with regards to the other parent could cause alienation. But most people seem to want to ignore this instead trying to accuse or find fault. Abuse comes in many forms and acting like the other parent doesn’t exist would cause any child to behave negatively towards them. It’s called “not emotionally supporting a child” and is almost impossible to prove. My ex is a highly intelligent woman that planned and knew from the start what she was going to do. She even told me this to my face but I thought the system would help me. The system is not designed for sociopathic solicitors but for people they see every day, the ones that shout, swear, write nasty messages not knowing this will be used as evidence, they are emotional and irrational. Not as cold as ice and know the law better than anyone in the court that they appear in. I won’t continue these messages as it’s pointless as I have done what I know to be my best and the right thing, it just hurts to think of any child living without basic emotional support. Just be aware whilst rare they are out there, my children were just unlucky they have the mother they do.

Thanks to the few that didn’t judge and tried to help you know who you are.

P.S. finally sorry for typos / flow / grammar. There was a lot to reply to and I am at work and doing this during breaks / lunch.

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