Divorce when business is a marital asset

[Tobeornotbe84]

Hi,

I am hoping to hear from someone who might have divorced where a business was involved.

My husband and I have been married 4 years & together for nearly 10. I supported him before he set up his business and after and throughout the running of it. Without going into details, he has been horrendous to live with and after having a child his behaviour got even worse.

Our marriage is broken and it’s not getting fixed. He has moved temporarily to live with his parents and I’m in the house with our daughter who is just over a year old now.

We are now looking at financials. He has a business and we have a house cars pensions etc
My husband has offered all the profits in the house 85k plus £1200 payment per month and the bank account will be halved between us.
I would like to hear opinions from people who have been in similar situation. I have been told by solicitors that the offset against the business could be the profits of the house but then I have also been advised that my daughter and I could get shares from the business too.

We are trying to amicably agree, am I being too pushy if I ask for shares in the business too ? My daughter and I would have to sell up and buy another house, it’s a big upheaval and if his business could support it, then of course we would want to stay in the house.

Any advice is appreciated.

Please stop meeting with him and both your dads !! And get proper legal advice . Not a free chat on the phone.

You’ll get there! I think you definitely need to get legal advice and stop even worrying about being fair. He’s clearly out to screw you over.

That said - there is a point at which the emotional cost of fighting for what you are entitled to is a factor - but I don’t think it sounds like you’re at that point yet.

I'm in a similar situation @Tobeornotbe84 and whilst you're deciding how amicable to be (it is so difficult I know) bear in mind what @M0RVEN says above about getting as much as you can upfront...that does two things: you know where you are financially from the start and it's a clean break so you won't have to deal with him over money indefinitely...and for me both of those are more important than wringing every last dollar out of the settlement. I'm not for a minute saying you should accept less than is reasonable, but in the longer term the ability to be free and not have to constantly negotiate over money should not be underestimated, especially when it potentially exposes you to less-than-honest dealings, which it sounds like your husband has already started.

Money and proper support for you and your daughter is important, but so is the ability to live your live free of financial wrangling and the stress that comes with it - somewhere between those two is a sweet spot that you'll be happy to accept.

No one, not even a family solicitor such as me, can advise you on an outcome until the values are all known, esp of the business and pensions.

Asking how much pie you want is pointless, until the size of the pie is established.

Ultimately, no court will want to leave you owning shares in the company, it's a recipe for ongoing litigation. What the Court will want to do is to establish whether the other assets going to you is fair (and meets your needs) or whether he needs to give you more, or less.

The Court will not treat this as a short marriage, courts take into account periods of "seamless" pre-marital cohabitation in determining marriage length. Plus, you have a child.

Go and get a decent solicitor, and get the company properly valued.

@M0RVEN

It’s exactly what he has suggested … let’s sort it al amicably and not involve lawyers and save money etc. it was me who took advice first and as he was only trying to offer us £400 a month I suggested to him that he seek advice as this was appalling that he was suggesting my daughter and I could even be supported based on that !!

@northerncrumpet

Absolutely. When you say getting as much as you can upfront do you mean things like the assets initially - before monthly payments are agreed ? Is that what you’re referring to ?

Someone did mention a clean break - what does that mean ?

I feel silly for provisionally agreeing something with them and now going back word but in a way I fee they’re pushing me to make a decision and keep asking me for the notes from the meeting …

I am within my right to change my mind. Just because I provisionally and verbally said I was happy with something, doesn’t mean I should settle for it and especially when I feel they’re trying to do both me and our child over.

People change their minds all the time even when lawyers are involved right ?!

I'm an IFA and have dealt with divorce cases. I would strongly suggest a divorce lawyer or professional mediator with full financial disclosure on both sides.

Majority of the limited company info can be found on companies house. You wouldn't try and rewire a house unless you were an electrician therefore I would t try and sort a divorce without a solicitor who specialises in this area

@MrsBertBibby

I know, and I have been advised this but he is reactant to share his business information and I think they will try and manipulate things.

I thought initially what we discussed based on me taking the house £1200 a month plus half the account ( me continuing to pay his credit card 3k) was fair but now I’ve thought more about it, I do not think it is as I do not know the full value…

If you’re a solicitor, perhaps I could have an initial chat with you and we can take it from there ?

But he shouldn't he supporting you once you split. He should only need to pay childsupport. Your posts come across like you expect him to be solely responsible for financially raising your child and finance you too. 1200, of which you state 800 goes to childcare and you can't possibly use 400 to raise your child? So you pay nothing? You both need to be responsible for your child and your own living arrangements. Most people here on Mumsnet get nothing like what you think you should.

You need to consult both a solicitor who has experience of this type of divorce and an accountant.

Be warned that there is no exact way of valuing a business, as I was told when qualifying as an accountant. No doubt hé will have a friend who will give a rock-bottom value.

@Brisbanite78

I work part time. The offer of the 1200 - 800 of this is nursery fees as this is what he agreed to pay before my mat leave ended 400 is child maintenance. Are you suggesting this is too much to pay ? Given I said I wouldn’t touch his business, and I’d keep the house - I don’t junk that this is too much at all.

@Brisbanite78

But he shouldn't he supporting you once you split. He should only need to pay childsupport. Your posts come across like you expect him to be solely responsible for financially raising your child and finance you too. 1200, of which you state 800 goes to childcare and you can't possibly use 400 to raise your child? So you pay nothing? You both need to be responsible for your child and your own living arrangements. Most people here on Mumsnet get nothing like what you think you should.

You have no idea of the matrimonial assets in the Ops marriage ( unless you are her husband of course ) . So you don’t know if her expectations are reasonable or not .

Your post seems motivated by jealously TBH. It’s not a race to the bottom.

@Tobeornotbe84 when I say get the money up front, I mean you should aim for a larger share of the assets of the marriage.

Stop trying to negotiate an amount of child support. You can’t decide on the amount because you don’t know his income. And you almost certainly won’t get whatever you agree because he can hide his income.

As I said before, stop having free phone chats with random solicitors who can only give you general advice. Instruct one, then collect all the information you can on assets. Every single thing - property, cars, shares, pensions, savings , insurance . Take it to your own solicitor.

Stop asking your husband, he will lie. He is not your friend and he is not on your side.

Stop talking to him about it, stop completely. Don’t have meetings and don’t send notes of meetings. Don’t talk to his family about money or the divorce.

I am not jealous 😆.

He offers a lot now, but possibly if you go after him for more and more he might decide to get savvy and hide his money and you'll get a whole less than the original verbal offer. You see it time and again here on Mumsnet.

At some point the Poster should work out her own finances to support her daughter by whatever means if it all goes south, instead of taking him on his word. After all, you are splitting up.

Hello @Tobeornotbe84, like @M0RVEN, what I meant was to get all the assets/cash you are due - not including child maintenance - when you divorce, rather than taking shares or part of his pension(s) which may or may not have value later on, or which will depend on you negotiating (again) with your ex.

It's always tempting to think that things will rise in value so you'll wait to have them later, but that way you are tied to him indefinitely, which you can do without.

A clean break is the opposite of that, and it means that everything except child maintenance (so share of assets inc house, cash etc) is done and dusted as part of the divorce settlement and you have no further call on him financially. Child maintenance is calculated separately, as a percentage of his income - which is another reason why you need to get the business valued, to know what kind of monthly income he has and therefore what your percentage would be. If he earns significant amounts you might also be able to apply for spousal maintenance, given your child is so young, but personally I'd walk away from that and take my freedom instead!

As everyone keeps saying, don't talk to him talk to a suitable solicitor - you can still keep your communication with him amicable, but it'll be based on professional advice as to what is reasonable.

I'm afraid I don't pick up clients from Mumsnet, OP, point of principle. If you're around London/ South East I could suggest a couple.

Brisbanite, you have a curious view of the obligations the parties to a marriage take on, especially when they have children. You don't get to shirk those just by getting a divorce.

If he’s offered the £1200 until our child is 18, could that be calculated in advance so that it’s classed as a “clean break “ therefore he pays 250k approx which means that we could do a clean break. I could pay the house off and continue to work my job and keep mine and our daughters life afloat and he just pays the child maintenance. That way there is never a financial discussion needed again. Only child maintenance.

Now, unless he wants to share the inns and outs of his business which he doesn’t - and we had discussions of him paying me a salary too of around £12000 a year as a top up, on top of his dividends … I feel if he is offering to pay £1200 a month for 18 years there is a way to work this out as a payment in advance / clean break ?!

I will be speaking to a solicitor on Monday - paid conversation … and will see what comes of that too

@Brisbanite78 has a point- it’s not for you to decide how much you need to live on and for him to fund it. Spousal maintenance is rarely awarded and CMS for £48,000 (you seem to think his income is £4K a month) would be more like £400.

What is fair or not is a matter of opinion and of course his will be different from yours. What happens in a divorce though is marital assets added to pot then divided. So you need to find out a value for pensions, business, house etc then get legal advice.

From personal experience I would avoid an ongoing payment (other than CMS) for 18 years as he could stop paying or apply to vary it. He will be able to manipulate his income to some degree with a business. Clean break is better.

@Villagewaspbyke

Have you read my post ? He has offered this amount. I haven’t asked for anything. I simply produced some costs. The offer is from him

Given I know he was going to pay me a salary and 4K min dividends to himself, understandably I want the best for my child !

I’m considering suggesting the clean break based on the 1200 over 18 years totalling to 250k ish given he won’t produce detailed accounts unless I take it legal or course

OP, ignore the nonsense. There is a strong body of opinion on Mumsnet that a man's income should be inviolate regardless of the fortunes of his former wife and children. God knows why, it is baffling to me, but any woman proposing to receive a penny more than CMS minimum.will find herself slated as a leach by this tribe and ordered to stand on her own two feet, (including, naturally, paying 100% childcare.) It's such bullshit

Clean breaks with capitalised maintenance are of course preferable as ongoing spousal maintenance is a pain, however, if there isn't the spare capital knocking around, it can't be done. Plus there can never be an order that prevents him having to pay CMS, so no lawyer will advise him to capitalise the child maintenance element as you can just come back for it later.

Him paying you a salary, btw, is insecure for you and dodgy as he'll if you are not in fact employed. He needs to pay you direct. He won't like it as not tax deductible.

@MrsBertBibby - no one is suggesting a “man’s income is inviolable” at all. Certainly not me and no other pp I have seen. Just that op would be better off with a clean break and that approaching it thinking only of her current costs and what her ex is offering is the wrong approach. Also an agreement to pay for the next 18 years as I said is likely (from my own experience) to be a pain to enforce (and he may try to vary) and a clean break is preferable.

@Tobeornotbe84 - I have read your posts but tbh Iam not all that clear on what he is “offering you” or what your ex dh has. Also no one can say if it’s “fair” or not as we don’t know what his income is or how much the marital assets are.

As I said, get everything valued (including business and pensions) abs get proper legal advice. Never mind his dad or step dad or whatever. It’s nothing to do with him.

@MrsBertBibby also who said anything about anyone being a leach if they get more than CMS? It’s not clear to me at all even op is saying that she will get more or less than CMS or what this supposed payment is for. As I said, it’s the wrong focus- you need to know what the assets and income are.

@MrsBertBibby I know I can see the nonsense !

So the salary was something we discussed pre divorce and I would have been working for him for that ..

I think he has money in the pot to do the clean break and I think it is the better option … I have a feeling even if he doesn’t have It in the pot that his step dad would pay it just to make everything easier in the future and then they would agree something between them…

CLean breaks are preferred If possible to do so
Spousal usually is in long marriages or temporary while you asjust and get on your feet - as stated upthread it can be capitalised but no one here is able to advise whether spousal maintenance in your circumstances would be awarded or not

Child maintenance won’t be capitalised as mrsbertbibby stated as you can always come after that even if it was all paid upfront

I don’t necessarily agree that all women on mums et disagree with someone receiving more than minimum cms - I do agree that it’s not just the man’s job to provide fir children and alot of times on here women seem to think it’s their exs job to provide everything ( house, income, maintenance etc) while they themselves shouldn’t have to

Not saying that’s your view op

Your solicitor should be guiding you towards what a fair settlement could look like

Really glad you are going to get some professional advice OP, although my solicitor didn’t have entirely good news for me I felt so much better knowing what I could ask for, and what XDH would be entitled to ask for. I could them plan accordingly with her help…for example I’ve asked for, and got, more than CMS level maintainer for the DC but have not gone after spousal to avoid XDH manipulation in the long term - I will be much less well off on just my income but as I said above, that liberates me from 10 more years of financial control so it’s a trade-off I’m willing to make. But your situation will be different and that’s why you need bespoke advice. Hope the appointment goes well.

@northerncrumpet thank you so much for your message. You’ve been so helpful and I have to say a lot of messages on here have given me so much encouragement, like yours.
I completely agree with you. It’s getting what is right, and sometimes that liberation is better than anything else !!
I’ve taken some advice already on what I need to ask for. So I need to ask for transparency on pension business etc and need to see all the bills as he has been co trolling all of that. Once I have that, I shall be taking it to the solicitor for advice on what they’ve offered vs what is actually in the pot.
I feel like they’re trying to just sideline my child. They haven’t even asked how our daughter is. Even my soon to be ex husband ( his lack of interest being one of the problems ) just doesn’t care. It’s almost as though they think that by throwing 1200 a month at us, letting us keep the house and half the account is like “ bye “ here’s all this… but, as some comments have been made here.. it’s not a bad monthly offer but I don’t know until I see the full pie and I’m not going off as a single mum to struggle away like that.
Please keep me posted on how things go for you too @northerncrumpet