Is Ex's financial split proposal unfair?

[breezy34]

Had a long chat with the Ex about our potential financial settlement. We'll start divorce and financial split later this year. What's your take on it - has he been unfair with his own spending, and his proposal in general? Or am I being unreasonable here?

Background
Married 11 years
I'm a SAHM mum, living in the FMH.
Only he has the mortgage on the property (I can't get one)
We have one daughter, starting school this year. (So I believe I'm expected to work 25 hours a week at that point, probably minimum wage)
Daughter lives with me, but stays 3 nights with him. (no custody order)
He pays me CM and extras (there's no CMS arrangement)
He deducts the mortgage cost from the CM, and pays the mortgage directly.
Ex is probably on a good income, though I don't know what.

Complication
Some time after moving out (2.5 years ago), he gave a lump of money from his account, to a relative (as he told me last night!).
Relative then bought a second home, in their name.
He's been renting that second home ever since, at the going rate.
He's spent money on fixing things and renovating parts of it.
He also says there's further fixes he needs to do, and isn't going to wait around (!) until divorce and financial splits are finalised, which he says could take ages.

My reaction was not happy! But this is what he suggested for a financial split (figures slightly rounded):

The assets:
70k = FMH equity
23k = lump of money he gave to a relative
7k = money he's spent on fixing things and renovations where he stays
100k = total

A 70:30 split

• I effectively keep 100% of the FMH equity (70k). (He says he'd sign the deeds over to me, but mortgage may not allow it.)
• He will continue paying the FMH mortgage on my behalf, but will continue deducting it from the CM (Says it allows him better chance to get own mortgage in future)
• He effectively keeps what he's already spent (30k) (although he says he won't be recouping what he spent...)
• He says he will not pay spousal maintence, as this would stop him being able to get a mortgage for himself, and he couldn't guarantee he'd be able to afford it in the future.

I told him:
-It was wrong for him to spend money sorting out a place for himself, and fixing it up, as he's basically deprived me of any share of it in cash.
-From now on until a financial split is approved, if we're agreeing on a 70:30 split, he should be giving me 70% of his monthly income (including CM). That way he's free to spend his remaining 30% on his own stuff. Because what happens if he overspends? It'll reduce the amount left for me, and he won't be able to offset that from the FMH house equity, if he's already giving me 100% of it.

So what's your opinion?

• was it fair of him to use money to set himself up, once he'd moved out, thus depriving me of cash, but offsetting it from the FMH equity?

• should he give me 70:30 of his income until divorce, to stop him overspending on the place he's currently in? Or just wait until divorce is done?

• is he right to propose continued deduction of mortgage from CM, if he's giving me 100% of the FMH equity?

• he says he's not recouping any of the money he spent and that its not an investment, but I think he should still declare it on the Form E somewhere? Even if its no longer a saving to recoup, or an investment.

• if I did agree to this 70:30 split at some point, do you think a court would think its fair?

• anything further I should ask him to change, to make this fairer?

You need to see a mortgage broker to see if you can buy the FMH or any other home before you do anything else. You can't make a decision without knowing this fact.

Given that he has your child 3 nights a week, it doesn't seem unreasonable that he has spent money on sorting out his own place. I also think you should be looking for more than 25 hours a week of work and thinking about how you can get more than NMW.

I think you can't know whether it's fair when you don't have all the facts. You will need to know his income.
And be absolutely sure whether or not he has any ownership of the second property.
Without that you can't decide what you might think is fair.
I think you need legal advice.

Surely if you get the FMH equity worth 70k he can fairly have another property anyway, whether it's rented or eventually transferred to him, assuming it's not a mansion or something. You need to make plans to move toward employment and being self supporting.

Of course he will spend on the place he is living, just like he is also spending on the place you are living. The standard of living at his place should be just as high as the standard of living at yours. You need a lawyer. You should be looking for work. You need to contribute financially to your and your child's lives. That is the responsibility of every adult and parent.

@Freshprincess you say he has reduced our assets, by spending £30k. I'm confused now if this is really the case or not. The way I see it is this -

scenario A:
FMH is 70k
Savings are 30k (if they were still available)
Total is 100k
70% of it is given to me, which is 70k
He keeps 30.

scenario B:
FMH is 70k
Savings are 30k (which he has spent already)
Total assets now remaining 70k
He gives me 70k (100% of the FMH)
He keeps the 30, that he'd already accounted for himself

I don't see any difference. In either scenario I end up with 70k. It's just he's already forced me into accepting my share, in the form of equity, rather than equity + some savings.

At least this way, if I choose to sell the FMH house any point down the line, I don't owe him any of it. As he's already left me 100% of it.

Slowly I'm feeling like it's not such a bad deal after all?

About pension, what is the normal thing to do with those? Should he cash them out at divorce, and give me a percentage of them, eg 70% again? Or do we wait until we both retire, then I get a percentage of his?

About his income, let's say it was 100+, does it make much difference? I've still be left with 100% of the FMH. And he's left himself with much less. And I continue to get 12% of his income as CM (with mortgage deducted, as he pays it on my behalf).

Don't you think he's trying to make it sound like a good deal so you take it? Lots of things you've mentioned don't make sense. My partner is on the mortgage for his FMH, when we looked at buying together the broker said this wouldn't affect how much we could borrow. You need serious advice & there needs to be a full financial disclosure from him

OP, have you posted about this before? The was a poster a few months ago with very a very similar situation. She wanted her ex to pay mortgage, CM, plus a large percentage of his income. He was on a fairly low wage but she was insisting on spousal support and adamant that she shouldn’t have to work.

Anyway, you need to speak to a solicitor to agree an asset split.

Trying to get 70% of his income is ridiculous, though. He’s entitled to live.

You’ll need to get a job and support yourself. As he has your child three days a week, that should be pretty manageable for you.

I’d say both of you are making a bit of a mess of things by trying to do it your “own way”. The logic being applied doesn’t really work either. You are divorcing and that means severing financial links as soon as you can. If it can’t be done immediately, there are legal ways and means. You don’t need to make them up. If you do it will end in a mess.

Taking the £30k was a high handed act by him. He decided what he was entitled to and took it and used it in a way that makes it difficult to recover. He either knows or has been advised that it was a dick move that would be easily uncovered in a divorce. Of course he has an interest in the property he financed it. Tell him you want to know the equity growth in the property. That’s what is relevant. And yes you can get to that money by forcing a sale of the property.
He had no option but to put it back on the table. And by doing so has declared it is a family asset.

What you should be aiming for is a clean break. Where that does meet your housing needs you can apply for a mesher order. If that messes with his life, then that’s his problem but you need to think of your child. Your ex will not be left destitute.

Why are you allowing him to manage your money? Tell him to give you the full CMS amount. Then you can pay the mortgage. He just needs to give you the details. By doing this you will have control and you will have leverage to resolve the financials. With a full CMS income you edge towards being able to get a mortgage in your own right.

A solicitor will tell you if you can get spousal and if it is worth it. But it’s better to take as much equity as possible. And you definitely need to know about the pensions. To decide whether you want a cash split now to have a share in the future.

I think part of you wants him to take care of things. But you really need to set your own agenda as a single and independent adult. He’s not going to be your husband and he doesn’t have your interests at heart.

@breezy34 because I don’t believe he’s given a relative £30k out of the goodness of his heart. He has an interest in the property and you don’t despite funding half of it. He did this nearly 3 years and has made improvements that have likely increased its value.

Now it might be that he is genuinely trying to redress the balance and be fair, or trying to cover his tracks. You know him.

Either way, you need a solicitor to sort it out.

This isn’t right. You’re not entitled to any of his income. Your child is entitled to child maintenance. And assets start at 50/50. But that doesn’t include his income unless you get spousal maintenance which is unlikely.

I’m actually noth shocked and impressed you even requested it.

Is the relative perhaps older and planning to leave him the property in their will? And the rent he’s paying is the mortgage payment?
If he were planning and trying to be fair there would have been transparency from the start.

Pensions are split, not cashed out, which means you will get a pension when you retire. I would not assume you'll get more than 50% of his current pot, and it will be based on what he has paid in now, not future payments.

You need to get some more definitive figures to work out what might be fair. Is he a professional person, and is he self employed? How much did he earn when you were still together? Have you checked with the Land Registry who owns the other property?

So as a starting point you are entitled to 50% of everything at the point of divorce (or at the point of financial settlement if you agree to sort sooner). Plus 12% of his income CMS until your child reaches 18.

You can argue that you are entitled to more of the assets given you are housing the child and have not worked to raise the child. 70:30 sounds like a reasonable (perhaps on the high side depending on his income).

Assets include:
FMH and any other property
Pensions
Cars and other items of value
Any cash either of you hold - however you hold it. (A documented loan would come in here)

I would want him to complete a form E and yes the loan / potential property should be included. As should the value of pensions - do not let him forget this bit!

I'm going to hazard a guess that he does have an idea of what his pension is worth- and that it is more than £70k and that he is hoping that by being 'very generous' with the house you 'forget' about his pensions and you don't go digging on the second property and deprivation of assets.

You can get an idea of the 2nd property's value by checking the sold price and getting a zoopla value now. You can also demand that all his bank accounts are listed on form E and where the deposit came from.identified.

Something else to think about and maybe take advice on is that by staying on the mortgage he remains liable for it. Given that many women here have experienced a good cms payment initially but then it disappears when circumstances changed. Him paying it directly and being liable to the bank does guarantee that that at least will be paid. But I would want your name on the deeds as otherwise he can sell it / take loans against it without your concent.

Trying to get 70% of his income is ridiculous, though. He’s entitled to live

I couldn’t agree more, she’s not entitled to a penny of it. She’s entitled to child maintenance but as he has the child three days a week it won’t be huge.

Asking for seventy percent of his income and demanding he can’t spend on his own place is seriously unreasonable and no judge would agree to such a thing.

Op, you need to get a job. His income is not in the pot as far as the divorce Assets are concerned, you can fight for spousal maintenance, you’re unlikely to get it, but if you do, it would certainly not be 70 percent of his income.

[quote breezy34]@Freshprincess you say he has reduced our assets, by spending £30k. I'm confused now if this is really the case or not. The way I see it is this -

scenario A:
FMH is 70k
Savings are 30k (if they were still available)
Total is 100k
70% of it is given to me, which is 70k
He keeps 30.

scenario B:
FMH is 70k
Savings are 30k (which he has spent already)
Total assets now remaining 70k
He gives me 70k (100% of the FMH)
He keeps the 30, that he'd already accounted for himself

I don't see any difference. In either scenario I end up with 70k. It's just he's already forced me into accepting my share, in the form of equity, rather than equity + some savings.

At least this way, if I choose to sell the FMH house any point down the line, I don't owe him any of it. As he's already left me 100% of it.

Slowly I'm feeling like it's not such a bad deal after all?

About pension, what is the normal thing to do with those? Should he cash them out at divorce, and give me a percentage of them, eg 70% again? Or do we wait until we both retire, then I get a percentage of his?

About his income, let's say it was 100+, does it make much difference? I've still be left with 100% of the FMH. And he's left himself with much less. And I continue to get 12% of his income as CM (with mortgage deducted, as he pays it on my behalf).[/quote]
You won't get spousal maintenance. Marriage is over. You need to get a full time job. You will get child maintenance but the percentage varies depending on the nights he has the children.

@Freshprincess

He has reduced his and your assets. He has given away £30k to a relative to buy a house and is continuing to spend your joint money on it.

Chances are that once you’re divorced the house will be transferred over to him.

Half of what we he spends is yours, and you won’t see any value from it.

Get a solicitor.

This is a bit misleading. Half of what he spends is not the OPs because they're separated. The OP should be maximising her own income. His obligations start and end with CM and his share of any mortgage unless a court awards maintenance pending suit.

Op, his pension is valued on a formula basis, it’s no where near the equivalent of 1£:1£ and then the split is done, if you’ve only been a stay at home mum for a short period Ie four years or whatever then what you brought to the table before this is taken into account,

You’re acting like this bloke is a meal ticket for life, he’s not. You’re expected to stand on your own two feet financially and get a job and provide for yourself and your child also, to your share,

See a solicitor .

@Freshprincess

He has reduced his and your assets. He has given away £30k to a relative to buy a house and is continuing to spend your joint money on it.

Chances are that once you’re divorced the house will be transferred over to him.

Half of what we he spends is yours, and you won’t see any value from it.

Get a solicitor.

@Freshprincess - this. Definitely see a solicitor,

I also think he’s making it sound like a good deal so you’ll accept this. You will need to get a full time job though as others have said. You really really can’t be a SAHM/W anymore or expect to be. I worked for a solicitors in a well off area and only one woman was supported by her ex and couldn’t work and they hadn’t been married.

@Chestofdraws

Trying to get 70% of his income is ridiculous, though. He’s entitled to live

I couldn’t agree more, she’s not entitled to a penny of it. She’s entitled to child maintenance but as he has the child three days a week it won’t be huge.

Asking for seventy percent of his income and demanding he can’t spend on his own place is seriously unreasonable and no judge would agree to such a thing.

Op, you need to get a job. His income is not in the pot as far as the divorce Assets are concerned, you can fight for spousal maintenance, you’re unlikely to get it, but if you do, it would certainly not be 70 percent of his income.

This is another slightly misleading post (although probably correct in most circumstances). We don't know what the husband earns, so we have no idea whether spousal maintenance is likely or not. Based on the assets accrued in the marriage though it does seem unlikely.

What I've learned from my own solicitor is that spousal maintenance only really comes into play is the payer can "bridge the gap." The gap is basically referring to the way universal credit drops £1 for £1 against spousal maintenance (i.e. if I gave my STBXW £100 SM, she would get £100 less UC).

If the OP is a stay at home parent with two children then UC might be something like £800-£900 a month so her ex would need to be able to pay that and a worthwhile amount over that and still be able to meet their own needs. You need to be earning well into six figures to be able to do that, especially if the weaker party has already been given the majority of the assets.

SM is more common where neither relies on UC but one earns a significant amount more than the other. This might occur for example where two people - who both work - divorce after the children have grown up and one earns a lot more than the other. The higher earner may pay SM until they both reach pension age (this is why I refused my STBXW's plea to ignore her cheating and stay together until the children were grown up. If I did I would probably have ended up having to pay her SM until we were in our late 60s).