Teenagers contact with dad

Hedgepeeg · 2022-02-02T23:18:03+00:00

Is it fair to commit in writing for the kids (age 11 and 15) to stay 3 nights a week with dad if he can only afford a place with 2 bedrooms if he is paying child maintenance based on them staying with him 3 nights a week, if that makes sense? Paying the full child maintenance means he can't afford a 2 bedroom place. I feel like they should have some say in the matter and later down the line if they don't want to stay 3 nights they shouldn't have to.

millymolls · 03/02/2022 21:02

What’s the aim here? To minimise his maintenance?
Personally I think teenagers absolutely should get a say In it. Many prefer to have more flexible arrangements and kind of come and go ( depends how far apart parents are)
Not sure they’d be keen to stay there half their time sharing a room If they have their own rooms

Original poster

Hedgepeeg · 03/02/2022 21:21

He wants to cut the maintenance down in order to afford a 2 bed flat. He wants me to sign an agreement saying they stay 3 nights a week. At the moment the youngest is in tears just going round to see his dad, it's only been a month since the split. He's only over the road and can see them whenever he wants but hasn't made much effort, I've arranged most of the contact so far.

OP posts:

toobusytothink · 03/02/2022 21:27

Sounds as though he’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. If he has them less than 3 nights a week then he has to pay more maintenance which means he can’t afford a 2 bed place so will inevitably end up seeing them hardly at all. Depends on how important you think it is for the kids to see their dad. And if you can afford to accept maintenance based on him having them 3 nights a week. Try not to judge him for what he’s done so far. Obviously don’t know the situation but he may just be adjusting to the change. Personally I don’t think you need a childcare order but depends if you are going to ask for more from him if he ends up seeing them less. Then I can see why he wants one. It’s a tough one ….

millymolls · 03/02/2022 22:48

Can you afford for him not to give you maintenance? Or something but at a lower rate?
Of course I know he should pay but how much do you need the money ?

You do t have to go via cms , can you come to your own arrangement?

I wouldn’t force my children to go for that long if they really didnt want to. Especially as he’s close by. Perhaps it’s just too soon for them and in time they’ll be more ok about it?

LemonTT · 04/02/2022 10:36

They might both be stuck between a rock and a hard place if there isn’t enough money to meet needs. It will impact on the OP as well. With the children in the middle.

Thinking money is the problem here is really missing the point. A child should want to be with their father. And if they don’t thats a huge emotional burden for them and one that needs to be unpicked and resolved.

Theunamedcat · 04/02/2022 10:39

Don't put anything in writing just make an agreement about child maintenance for now but honestly if I couldn't afford a roof over my head and only had the kids three nights a week I would be looking at a second job

Unknown83 · 04/02/2022 11:11

@Hedgepeeg

This is a really strange thing to ask for two reasons. First of all, I'm not really clear on why he cannot afford even a two bedroom place unless he reduces his maintenance whilst presumably you are able to afford a three bedroom place. If we took this outcome to its logical conclusion, then lots of SAHPs would lose contact with their children unless they could secure an increasingly rare Mesher Order until the youngest is 18. It's as though all of your needs and none of his have been considered; are you able to elaborate further on this?

The second reason this seems odd is that finances are being conflated with contact at all. It's almost as though the ex-H has been put in a difficult situation housing wise and then is being punished for it by having less contact with his children. Again, it doesn't seem like a very sensible outcome.

Would I be right in thinking this has all occurred in negotiation rather than a court setting?

Unknown83 · 04/02/2022 11:20

@Theunamedcat

Don't put anything in writing just make an agreement about child maintenance for now but honestly if I couldn't afford a roof over my head and only had the kids three nights a week I would be looking at a second job

I would want to know what the OP was doing for work before suggesting the EX-H should work two. I'll explain my situation to illustrate.

I was the higher earner in the household and my STBXW is currently a SAHP. If she wanted to, she may be able to get a Mesher Order (I say may because she has neither asked for one nor is that outcome by any means certain). If she succeeded in getting the Mesher Order, she would have a 4 bedroomed house for her and three children whilst I would struggle to raise another mortgage on a studio flat. If the Mesher Order also required I pay some of the mortgage, I could find myself in a position where I could barely rent my own studio flat. This is because of the huge mortgage on the FMH.

I earn £85-90k bonus depending each year and I work full time. Would it be reasonable to expect me to be the one job hunting? Probably not, especially as I have precious little spare time as it is. I don't think it unreasonable that men (and women) in my situation should be able to spend a reasonable amount of time with our children each week.

Original poster

Hedgepeeg · 04/02/2022 11:50

He earns almost 3 times what I do (I work full time and have recently got a 2nd job). He is paying half the mortgage and maintenance. I cannot afford to live if he pays considerably less. Moving is not an option, not enough equity in the house. We have agreed to seel the house when the kids are 18. His earning potential will always be much higher than mine.

OP posts:

Original poster

Hedgepeeg · 04/02/2022 11:51

Be nice if the kids eventually wanted to stay more with him but i don't want to push them to that when at the moment they choose not too. Contact can also be not just overnights!

OP posts:

toobusytothink · 04/02/2022 12:46

I agree with @Unknown83 - that’s what I was hinting at by him being in a difficult place. Yes it would be nice if the kids wanted to see him more but they sure as hell won’t if they don’t have a bedroom! The fact he has been so generous and is still paying half the mortgage. Yes contact doesn’t need to be overnight but then you get more maintenance. Is this what you’re after??? He sees them on the off afternoon/evening but not overnight. Therefore he has to pay you more maintenance as it is overnight time that counts towards CM amounts. And then he only needs a studio?! Nice for you. Shit for him. But sounds as though that’s what you are suggesting

breakfastbar · 04/02/2022 12:56

The parent with residency is in a position to exploit the CMS system. There is no need for the CMS to be involved. Better to arrange what is fair for both parents by Consent Order and therefore no incentive to use access for money. I am being exploited for maintenance by my ex husband. If he gives up work then your maintenance, mortgage payments and lovely home will go. You will then be funding a much smaller home yourself. Be fair.

Unknown83 · 04/02/2022 14:07

@Hedgepeeg

He earns almost 3 times what I do (I work full time and have recently got a 2nd job). He is paying half the mortgage and maintenance. I cannot afford to live if he pays considerably less. Moving is not an option, not enough equity in the house. We have agreed to seel the house when the kids are 18. His earning potential will always be much higher than mine.

So basically he has very generously agreed to let you stay in the house and pay half the mortgage when he can't really afford to do soon top of his child maintenance and meeting his own needs. I'm not a solicitor so I recommend you speak to one about the potential outcomes if it went to court because there do seem to be some practical problems with this arrangement. For what it is worth (probably not much!) I have very consistently been told that in cases like these that involve a "Mesher Order" (essentially a deferred sale) it is almost always the resident spouse who must be able to pay the full mortgage and repairs/maintenance of the property and if they cannot then the house must be sold. Also, if he wants 3 nights to your 4, then his needs are almost identical to yours and the only thing keeping you in the house without a court battle right now is his generosity.

I imagine if you start trying to limit his contact with the children because of a situation he has put himself into for your benefit then that goodwill and generosity is probably going to be quite short lived and you might find he wants the house sold much earlier.

I also picked up in your posts an assumption that this is a matter for you to unilaterally decide. Again, you could needlessly walk into animosity by holding this attitude. Both of you are parents and should be deciding these things together.

Unknown83 · 04/02/2022 14:18

@breakfastbar

The parent with residency is in a position to exploit the CMS system. There is no need for the CMS to be involved. Better to arrange what is fair for both parents by Consent Order and therefore no incentive to use access for money. I am being exploited for maintenance by my ex husband. If he gives up work then your maintenance, mortgage payments and lovely home will go. You will then be funding a much smaller home yourself. Be fair.

The OP's ex-husband sounds far too generous to give up work but he's asking the OP the wrong question really. Access doesn't really need to come into the discussion though because he really shouldn't be paying half the mortgage if he isn't living there. His future share of the FMH is based on his ex using his capital and his mortgage capacity for the next 7 years, not on future payments. Non-resident spouses would normally only pay part of the mortgage if they were exceptionally well paid.

AnneLovesGilbert · 04/02/2022 14:22

Why is your child in tears? Is the split recent?

He’s not obliged to pay half your mortgage, that’s very generous. He could make you sell which would put him in a better place.

Unknown83 · 04/02/2022 14:26

@AnneLovesGilbert

Why is your child in tears? Is the split recent?

He’s not obliged to pay half your mortgage, that’s very generous. He could make you sell which would put him in a better place.

This is getting into solicitor territory and was why I was cautioning the OP about taking his generosity for granted. He might be able to force a sale or he might not. Loads of possible variables in that (how much he earns, how much OP earns and could earn, ages, actual equity in FMH, suitable smaller properties nearby etc etc).

But if the OP wishes to avoid this getting messy, then I would do two things:

Treat contact and finances separately. Once you start using contact with the children as leverage in financial discussions, things are probably going to get messy and acrimonious; and
Recognise generosity and try and match it by taking your partner's needs into account in any settlement if you want things to be amicable.

rbe78 · 04/02/2022 15:41

He should pay full maintenance, but stop paying half your mortgage.

Original poster

Hedgepeeg · 04/02/2022 16:30

He wants to pay half the mortgage because he wants to get as much as he can when we sell. It is very recent, the kids are trying to adjust. I've arranged all the contact, encouraged them and encouraged him to have them more. We both agree that it's in their best interest to stay in the house.

OP posts:

AnneLovesGilbert · 04/02/2022 16:51

He doesn’t have to keep paying the mortgage to benefit from the sale.

Unknown83 · 04/02/2022 18:06

@Hedgepeeg

He wants to pay half the mortgage because he wants to get as much as he can when we sell. It is very recent, the kids are trying to adjust. I've arranged all the contact, encouraged them and encouraged him to have them more. We both agree that it's in their best interest to stay in the house.

Unless you're offering him 60%+ on the equity on sale then he would probably be better off paying off his own mortgage more. Are you going to compensate him for loss of use, using his mortgage capacity etc for the next 7 years?

I recommend you both go to a financial advisor too. A split of the equity now and clean break might be better for both of you. Maybe he could afford more maintenance then?

millymolls · 04/02/2022 18:27

Well the reality is , while generous, he can’t afford to pay half the mortgage to keep you there and cms
You’ll need to explore alternatives

And work on understanding why your children don’t want to spend time with this dad