Dad - needs help on Christmas arrangements

[crazylife2022]

Hi,

I wasn't sure where to go and I came across mumsnet which I didn't know had this dedicated forum.

I'm in the final stages of my divorce due to my wife having an affair with her boss (they are both engineers and quite senior). What was horrific was that the AP's daughter was tutoring my two children and the AP's wife was also suffering with Cancer when I found out about the affair, there's lots more horrific stuff (video showers in the house, sending pics to him of my kids, omg it goes on forever). We'd been together about 17 years, happy I thought, no issues etc. It was the biggest shock of my life when I found out, I had absolutely no idea and trusted her.

My ex is Swedish, however the children have been brought up and born in the UK (10,13 girl boy). My wife wants to put in the parenting plan that every other year she takes then to Sweden for Christmas from the 20th - 27th Dec to spend with her parents. In the children's life I have been the most active parent and made the most sacrifice, I have always taken care of the children during her many business trips, collected from nursery, bathed them, a very active and loving dad which I still am. The thought of not seeing them even for a short time over Christmas makes me unhappy. I do not see why I and the children should be put at such detriment at that special time of the year. I have suggested that she spends a week before or after Christmas at her parents every year and have agreed she can have the children each Christmas eve (when Swedes celebrate).

This whole situation is playing heavy on my mind and I have no idea why she puts the children seeing her parents at Christmas above them seeing their father. During this year she also intents to take them to Sweden at Easter for a week and two week in the summer. Recently my son 13 has said that he does not want to go to Sweden for Christmas away from me and was quite upset about even discussing it.

I know opinions are just opinions, but if I agree to this am I being too reasonable? I don't have any family but my father who lives in Wales (4.5hrs away) so the reality is I would be spending Christmas alone without the two things in life that matter most to me.

Any help would be really appreciated.

Christmas is just a day - you can celebrate with them when they get back.

Would you consider taking the children to Wales for a week alternate years?

I think you agree if she agrees that you have them for a week from 20th-27th in the other year. Then it's fair.

I think it you are letting her take them overseas regularly at other times of year, you are under no moral obligation to agree to alternate christmases.

My brother's ex-wife passionately hates him (she had an affair with a mutual friend and walked out leaving A4 and 8 year old with my DB, she hates the idea of my DB existing as it is a reminder of a very shameful and sordid period of her life). Anyway she also disliked being a mum, similar to your ex she did love her kids but didnt really want to have to inconvenience herself by taking care of them. She and my DB agreed to 50:50 custody and split the holidays in half. But Christmas was non-negotiable my DB simply put his foot down and said he wanted to see them every 25th December. And his ex wanted to see them to celebrate Christmas on 24th (she is German). So the kids do go to their dad's on Christmas Day every year, without fail, and it has been that way for 7 years. The kids do not mind as they get double Christmas and they like spending time with each parent.

If the grandparents want to see the kids they have to travel to see them. My mum flew out to Germany to see my DB and the kids for several Christmases, and on alternate years (except during covid) DB flew to the UK on Boxing day just for a few days.

You are allowed to say no to your children travelling overseas so you could make it fairly pointless for her to have the kids.

I can understand the situation is emotionally charged right now, but I'd definitely tell your ex that you won't agree to the children travelling to Sweden for a week at Christmas as you want to see them yourself at Christmastime.
There is no need for you to sacrifice your wishes here.

Christmas is a particularly emotive time.
My SC's spend Christmas Eve and most of Christmas Day with their Mum and then come to Dad's in the evening and spend a few days with us.
They're adults now and still mostly do this.
In your situation it does feel a little imbalanced as the kids would still see Mum when they're in the UK but you wouldn't see them as much when they're in Sweden.
A poster upthread commented that actually you're only looking at this actually happening a handful of times. As the kids get older they may express their own feelings around this and it sounds like your son is already a bit doubtful.
I'd keep an open dialogue and say let's try it for a couple of years and see how the kids like it..
Residency arrangements often have to change as kids get older - especially if you do what's in their best interests.
My SC were both at primary school when I started seeing my now DH. Kids shuttled between Mums & Dad's frequently as this suited them. Mum lived nearby. Then they asked for this to be changed, so they did a midweek swap and alternate weekends. Once they went to high school this was harder - books/uniforms etc, so we went to a week plus weekend and swapped on Sunday night. It was tough as it meant going without seeing them for 7 days. But it was easier for the kids.
Whatever you agree to now doesn't mean it can never be changed.

@nocoolnamesleft

They're half Swedish. I would think it would be important for them to spend some time in Sweden, with the Swedish part of their family, learning about their Swedish heritage.

Yes I do, And they spend a week at Easter, two weeks in the summer and a week at October half term... I'm not saying they shouldn't spend a week over the Christmas period, but Christmas should be shared. I absolutely endorse them being half Swedish (or having a Swedish mom).

@gonnabeok

you need to suck it up Im afraid. She cannot tell you what to do with the children when they spend christmas with you and you cannot tell her what to do with the children when the children are with her every alternate christmas. The only other way is to split christmas which some parents do. So have them from 20th december to christmas monring one year and from chrismas afternoon to 29th December the next year. Then you get to see them every christmas for a realistic period of time. I know many divorced couples who this works well for.

This is more or less what I agreed with my ex when we split up with a bit of flexibility but Christmas Day always started with me and then they went to dad at some point maybe at lunch time or may be just after. I don't think I've ever known a set up where a child doesn't see their parent for a whole week at Christmas

@SpringChickenSubstitute

I think it you are letting her take them overseas regularly at other times of year, you are under no moral obligation to agree to alternate christmases.

My brother's ex-wife passionately hates him (she had an affair with a mutual friend and walked out leaving A4 and 8 year old with my DB, she hates the idea of my DB existing as it is a reminder of a very shameful and sordid period of her life). Anyway she also disliked being a mum, similar to your ex she did love her kids but didnt really want to have to inconvenience herself by taking care of them. She and my DB agreed to 50:50 custody and split the holidays in half. But Christmas was non-negotiable my DB simply put his foot down and said he wanted to see them every 25th December. And his ex wanted to see them to celebrate Christmas on 24th (she is German). So the kids do go to their dad's on Christmas Day every year, without fail, and it has been that way for 7 years. The kids do not mind as they get double Christmas and they like spending time with each parent.

If the grandparents want to see the kids they have to travel to see them. My mum flew out to Germany to see my DB and the kids for several Christmases, and on alternate years (except during covid) DB flew to the UK on Boxing day just for a few days.

You are allowed to say no to your children travelling overseas so you could make it fairly pointless for her to have the kids.

I can understand the situation is emotionally charged right now, but I'd definitely tell your ex that you won't agree to the children travelling to Sweden for a week at Christmas as you want to see them yourself at Christmastime.
There is no need for you to sacrifice your wishes here.

There are lots of other factors in this split and some of the things listed are really top of the iceberg. But it's been a while now and I've moved on. This is quite an emotive situation as the children don't really like being in Sweden. My ex is from a very formal background and shows no emotion at all (perhaps a Scandi thing) and her parents are the same. The kids are petrified of spilling something or dropping something because they know the consequences. This really is sort of irrelevant as I do want to be fair. The problem is she will not give an inch, in fact this week emailed me telling me she'd like them from the 21st to 28th Dec.

My children always break up two weeks before the normal school holidays and I've asked that I always have these weeks as it's much cheaper to go away. My ex goes to Sweden and has absolutely no restrictions what dates she can go, it's just flights for her. Her parents are retired and it would mean she goes away from around the 20th July for two week... Again she will not budge on this and insists we alternate, which I feel is just out of spite as she knows my holiday costs are going to be 50% more! ARgggh!

If this will be the first Christmas you will be divorced I don't think it would be the right time to take them away. Can she at least put it off til 2023? Let the children see both of you this year, even if only for a short time, to give them a chance to adjust.

I’m going to make the same comment about language use here. I know you said you don’t use terms like “whisking away”to your kids, my point is you are saying it to yourself and that is creating negativity for you. You’ve just said:
absolutely endorse them being half Swedish (or having a Swedish mom).
Which is contradictory in terms of how you’re thinking. They are half Swedish. They’re entitled to a Swedish passport. They are no less Swedish than they are English.
When I’m pointing these things out I’m trying to be helpful - I see my ex husband 6 years on using similar negative language, he is bitter, angry and alone. A positive mind set and language for yourself will help you immensely

If the children are that upset I think it is worth seeking legal advice.

@Ouchiebum

I’m going to make the same comment about language use here. I know you said you don’t use terms like “whisking away”to your kids, my point is you are saying it to yourself and that is creating negativity for you. You’ve just said: absolutely endorse them being half Swedish (or having a Swedish mom). Which is contradictory in terms of how you’re thinking. They are half Swedish. They’re entitled to a Swedish passport. They are no less Swedish than they are English. When I’m pointing these things out I’m trying to be helpful - I see my ex husband 6 years on using similar negative language, he is bitter, angry and alone. A positive mind set and language for yourself will help you immensely

They are half Swedish and have a Swedish passport already. But I tend to disagree that they are no less Swedish than English, they were born in England, go to an English school and have English friends, as the Swedes would put it they are Englified, there mom also has settled status in the UK and has been here since 19 (26 years) probably making her more English that Swedish. But I agree on paper they are half Swedish and I'm happy about that for future opportunities. I'm also sorry that your husband 6 years on used similar language, but that could also be down to your misunderstanding of his feelings and a breakdown in communication, you seem quick to read into things? And I do have a positive mind and an amazing relationship with both children, we are extremely close. This isn't about the language though, that can be misinterpreted, it's about the facts of the situation. I appreciate your comments and take them on board :-).

Op, have your dc ever spent Xmas in Sweden before? If not then my gut feeling is that they shouldn’t be spending a first post Xmas separation in a different environment. I know you say your older child doesn’t want to go, aren’t they of an age where their wishes are considered?

Personally I think 20th to 27th is far too long apart and it’s unequal if the mum isn’t prepared to be apart for as long the next year. There’s no way I would let my ex have dc for that long. Apart from anything the whole buildup to Xmas in my family has a number of traditions. Luckily my ex is happy for us to still do these traditions- pantos, Xmas lights, biscuit making, Xmas eve party , visiting relatives etc. i don’t have a great relationship with my ex but he puts dcs needs first at Christmas.

In terms of making it fair, what would her reaction be if you told her she couldn't pop over to see the kids when it's your Christmas week? If she is not ok with that then you could point out the hypocrisy of her wanting to take the kids away from you for a week, but not prepared to give you a week with just your children.
Or could you also go to Sweden when they go and be around to pop in when you fancy it too?
Works both ways right?

I do think alternate christmases work best and I personally look at Xmas as just another day, but I think it should I be equal, and it doesn't sound like it is.

Regarding the other holidays I get you, my DC also finish before state schools and we always take our holidays then, I would be asking for alternate years, or alternative holidays, so she takes them early in summer you get early Xmas so you get the opportunity to get a good priced holidays at least once a year. Again I just think it should be fair on both parts.

In court you are likely to get alternative Xmas BUT not for a week ...more likely one has Xmas day, one boxing day.
Also at 13 your child will have their voice too.
I would give 1 week Easter and summer permission to go.
Her family can visit the UK at Xmas can they not?

If you agree to this and you start alternating this year then insist year 1 they are with you and on your year you also have them undisturbed for a whole week. I would absolutely not be pandering to her having them on Christmas Eve on your year

Thanks for all the balanced comments. It would be really unfair and I'd feel uncomfortable stopping her seeing the children for 7 days over Christmas if she was in the UK. I think that would be psychologically destructive to the children and would seem bitter. But yes it does feel there is no compromise on her side. I have suggested she goes to Sweden just after Christmas or returns just before. Swedes celebrate Xmas on the 24th and I have said she can have this every year if I get the 25th. She will push this as far as she can and has already threatened going to court which will be pointless. I can't see any order that would agree to this as it's unfair and unreasonable. But it's very delicate as this has been the thing she has given most attention to during the divorce. She visited Sweden a couple of times when travel was prohibited but got her dad to write a letter (he's a doctor) saying he was seriously ill. This was so she could celebrate a milestone birthday. This is the kind of person I am dealing with, on that occasion she wanted to take the children too! I said over my dead body....

Tell her take it to court - the kids opinions will then be heard in an official way.

Actually thinking that if I have them this Christmas I will take them away somewhere. That might even be out of the UK, but not Sweden! I still don't like her plan, just because she feels she can go a week without seeing the children doesn't mean it's right for me..I think divorce actually brings out the person you really married!

I don't think you can or should stop her taking them to Sweden for some Christmases, it wouldn't really be fair, although obviously I appreciate it's very hard for parents not to spend Christmas with their children, especially if there aren't many other options of who to spend it with.

Could you compromise and she could take them to Sweden 27th into the New Year instead? Would she be open to that? That way you both still get time with them over the 24th-26th, but she still gets to take them to visit her family.

Otherwise I think you will have to accept her taking them some years. It will be fine for them, worse for you, but you could get through it if you know they would be back with you on 28th until they went back to school, or whatever.

@Glitterygreen

I don't think you can or should stop her taking them to Sweden for some Christmases, it wouldn't really be fair, although obviously I appreciate it's very hard for parents not to spend Christmas with their children, especially if there aren't many other options of who to spend it with.

Could you compromise and she could take them to Sweden 27th into the New Year instead? Would she be open to that? That way you both still get time with them over the 24th-26th, but she still gets to take them to visit her family.

Yes I've suggested this. She could come back on 23rd or go out in 27th Dec. Wed then share eve, Xmas day and boxing day. To be honest she's only interested in Xmas eve. Nevertheless she is not willing to compromise. The balls in my court really as she can't take them from the UK without my permission, her unreasonableness isn't really helping any compromise.. Last week she told me this year she was taking the children to Sweden for a week Easter, two weeks summer and over Christmas... I think the children are getting plenty of time with their grandparents without the need to be there at Christmas.

Agree to her demands but only if you have them for Xmas this year and her turn is next year.

By that time your kids will be (nearly?) 12 and 15 and if they really don’t want to go they can choose not to. (My kids are this age and solicitor advised me their views would be paramount at this age)

When her turn next comes around your eldest will be 16/17 so can definitely choose not to go - so you are really only looking at a single year without them both unless they really want to go (in which case presumably you wouldn’t mind?)

@Coldiron

Agree to her demands but only if you have them for Xmas this year and her turn is next year.

By that time your kids will be (nearly?) 12 and 15 and if they really don’t want to go they can choose not to. (My kids are this age and solicitor advised me their views would be paramount at this age)

When her turn next comes around your eldest will be 16/17 so can definitely choose not to go - so you are really only looking at a single year without them both unless they really want to go (in which case presumably you wouldn’t mind?)

I agree with you and I have thought the same. My son will be 14 at the next Christmas and as you say 15 the following (when he would go to Sweden for Xmas). He's already expressed a desire to spend less time in Sweden this year as he want to be with friends, skateboard etc. He is definitely becoming more independent. By 15 he may have a girl friend and even more reason to want to stay local. I never would stop the children from going away and Sweden is a part of their lives, but this isn't about whats best for the kids, it's what their mom wants. I'm taking the children abroad in the summer for a week, new country, new experiences. Their mom is taking them to Sweden where they go every year! The kids are growing up and they don't particularly want to spend every holiday with their grandparents on a remote Island! Thanks for the advice :-)!