How do you get through living together while waiting for occupation order

FutureExH · 11/01/2022 02:09

@AllChange2022

Children involved, which makes it so much worse.

It's a small property and we all live on top of each other, with two very traumatised little children.

There's going to be a non-molestation order preventing him from talking to me. I mean literally, nothing. If he wants to say anything he has to ring is solicitor to call mine and relay a message.

How's that going to work for my children? I so much need to protect them more than anything else and I don't know how this is going to be for them.

Any pointers from anyone who's been in this position?

Would need to know a lot more information to be able to advise anything. Reality is this is an internet forum, we don't know your situation and occupation orders get requested in a wide range of scenarios from serious risk of harm to a spouse and/or their children all the way down to a spouse playing dirty tricks to try and get a stronger negotiating position on the finances and childcare arrangements.

Feel free to add more detail about what the risks are and why that NMO in particular and it might be possible to say more about whether the occupation order request is likely to succeed.

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 06:14

What are dirty tricks to win negotiations?

This is based on the children being terrified of him because he hits them and threatens to hit them, but he's always within the law as he doesn't mark them. Based on coercive control, such as verbal aggression because I’ve dared to go against his will, like taking DC to the GP over serious matters - that to ignore would be negligent, based on verbal abuse through name-calling, based on sexual abuse through sexual coercion and intimacy while I am unable to give consent...

OP posts:

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 06:17

More likely to succeed as I have a disabling illness which is known to worsen through stress; DC are being treated psychologically with counselling at school or through CAMHS.

OP posts:

MrsBertBibby · 11/01/2022 06:24

Getting an OO is hard, you need strong evidence of harm to you and/or children, caused by him, and you need to show what his options are.

A zero comms non molestation order shouldn't be granted if you are still under the same roof, it's impossible not to breach.

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 08:59

Evidence is he has admitted to much of it to couples therapist and the children openly complain about how he is to them. I’ve also recorded conversations where he admits to everything. Literally all of it. Tried to defend the sexual stuff even, as normal, everyone does it.

I agree it's going to be impossible to not add to the harm for the children, it's such a strange and scary situation to have two adults effectively stonewalling each other because they have to legally. Apparently if there's anything to be said we have to talk through solicitors, even if we're in the same house. But on the other hand it does stop him being able to do half of what he does do, unless he takes it out on the children and I am unable to defend them like o always have done because I can't talk to him.

OP posts:

MrsBertBibby · 11/01/2022 09:33

What he has said in therapy may very well not be admissible.

It is easy as pie for him to say the children are lying on your orders.

All this means a trial, and that can take months to get a listing.

FutureExH · 11/01/2022 09:36

@AllChange2022

What are dirty tricks to win negotiations?

This is based on the children being terrified of him because he hits them and threatens to hit them, but he's always within the law as he doesn't mark them. Based on coercive control, such as verbal aggression because I’ve dared to go against his will, like taking DC to the GP over serious matters - that to ignore would be negligent, based on verbal abuse through name-calling, based on sexual abuse through sexual coercion and intimacy while I am unable to give consent...

I'm not saying there are dirty tricks, only that we have so little information that it's hard to provide any advice. MrsBertBibby's post above is to the point.

If what you're saying is accurate (and apologies, this is an internet forum and I don't know you and whether this is the literal truth or an embellishment) then why on earth is your solicitor wasting time with NMOs that will be impossible to enforce?

The problem you will face will be evidential as a lot of it will be considered hearsay in a divorce. It reality it depends on the quality of what you've recorded and whether a court could be satisfied that there was genuine risk involved rather than just a divorce turned nasty.

The trouble is that spouses in nasty divorces do make false accusations as a dirty trick either to prevent the other person getting access to the children or to get more of the asset split (e.g. being the sole occupant of the FMH gives them more control over the sale and if spouse with occupation order gets a roof over their head they can be considered "housed" etc). That means you will have to convince sceptics that there is hard evidence to the contrary, that there is coercive control going on.

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 09:45

It probably helps that some recordings were a year before divorce was even on the table. They're crystal clear bbc quality recordings. But also, the children report incidents way back too, and they're not divorcing him!

The point of the NMO was to give him a warning shot across the bows: big brother is watching you; you're not getting away with this anymore.

Though I agree that then becomes his words against hers, unless of course I record him talking to me when he's not allowed to, then that's more proof.

OP posts:

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 09:46

It may come across as though I'm canvassing for majority of child custody because it's true I am. It's unsafe for them to be with him, which is why I stayed as long as I did. I felt I had no option but to be here to defend them, as, without me, who will?

OP posts:

FutureExH · 11/01/2022 10:18

@AllChange2022

It may come across as though I'm canvassing for majority of child custody because it's true I am. It's unsafe for them to be with him, which is why I stayed as long as I did. I felt I had no option but to be here to defend them, as, without me, who will?

And that's your problem right there. It's unsafe for your children but you're not fleeing, you're waiting for some paperwork. And although you claim to fear this man and that you are coercively controlled by him, at the same time you're not afraid to get an NMO against him whilst living in the same house.

You could well be telling the truth but you're doing an awful lot to undermine your credibility. If you have genuine concerns you should leave the FMH with the children and go into "unsuitable" or temporary accommodation (so you are not considered "re-housed") until such time as an occupation order is agreed.

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 10:33

I asked my solicitor whether I can do that without losing the long term home, and am waiting their instructions.

I also have covid so am ideally not supposed to pass it on to friends and family, which is why the whole thing is just so difficult. Also, we've put up with him for a very long time and although he's getting worse it's a drip-drip, not like someone who held a knife to my throat last wee, if you see what I mean.

OP posts:

rainbowdashsneeze · 11/01/2022 11:29

Posts like this are really beginning to frustrate me. Who in their right mind would stay in a home with a man who hurts their children? I appreciate what you're saying but I'd be living out of a suitcase for as long as it took just to keep my children safe.

You are being abused! your children are being abused! Protect yourself and your children and leave.... you are worth so much more than this and so are your poor children. women aid will help you. Stop making excuses, you may have covid right now but you mention your children were abused a year ago!!

You can do this!! Sorry for being brutal but you need a wake up call.

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 12:51

It's okay I’ve got my wake up call. I didn't know they were being abused last year. Much of what they tell me now they didn't tell me back then. Also, it takes time to realise that the last time happened again. And then again. And actually it's not the last time at all.

Because he keeps within the law, as in, doesn't bruise them, I thought he's just a nasty angry man who only shows his good sides at work. It takes time to realise that I have a case for domestic abuse. I have NEVER consciously thought that he's abusing them and I'm putting up with it. Not once. The minute I see it I called social services and the school and the GP, and then went to the police and told my solicitor. I’ve spoken to domestic abuse website and today the woman's refuge but they do have waiting lists when full.

I'm currently sorting out alternatives. I can see that my original question of how to cope is not the way forward here. I need to get out. But how, when the refuge is full and I have covid so don't want to kill my family and friends?

As it stands my parents are looking to move out so they don't get covid and i can move in. But my Dad has dementia so it's a massive upheaval for them. And that's why it's been tempting to try and do what my solicitor says the law expects of me, which is to call the police if he breaks the non-mol order.

OP posts:

rainbowdashsneeze · 11/01/2022 13:24

You only need to rock up to your local council homeless team with your children. Tell them your situation and they have a duty to house you. They will place you in temporary accommodation until they find you a stable home. During covid you can do this over the phone so your not exposing anyone to covid or at least get the ball rolling for when you're out of isolation.

Please don't take this as an attack! It isn't it's a you are worth so much more than this!

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 11/01/2022 21:40

My solicitor said if I move out before the occupation order hearing in a few weeks time then I won't be able to move back in. Since a divorce is likely to take about a year, I need to be here with the children. I can't go into all the reasons why but there are a great huge lot of them.

OP posts:

Jellycatspyjamas · 12/01/2022 08:00

What happened with social services? While he may not have bruised them, he is abusing them and social services threshold isn’t about what’s legal, it’s about what’s harmful. Do they know, for example, that he prevents you seeking medical care for them and is controlling you? Coercive control is illegal - what have the police had to say? Involvement with statutory services can go a long way to providing evidence in a civil case. Be aware that if you recorded him without his knowledge it likely won’t be admissible in court, so don’t rely on that as your primary evidence of abuse.

As it stands the environment is awful for you and the kids - living there is going to be untenable. If social services are aware you’re trying to flee domestic abuse there may well be supports they can put in place given there are children involved. While I really understand wanting to stay in the marital home, if it’s unsafe for the children you may need a rethink. Legal processes are lengthy so you could be leaving them exposed to abuse for an indefinite period of time which may cause you difficulties down the line.

Lubeyboobyalt · 12/01/2022 08:09

I'm sorry but in this case fuck the house and fuck ever going back to it - get out of there with your kids, let it eventually be sold and start again then. Houses can be replaced. Your kids need to know someone is protecting them, actively, right now. Out of there to full safety. Fully on their team. Your solicitor is a twat.

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 12/01/2022 08:54

@Jellycatspyjamas

What happened with social services? While he may not have bruised them, he is abusing them and social services threshold isn’t about what’s legal, it’s about what’s harmful. Do they know, for example, that he prevents you seeking medical care for them and is controlling you? Coercive control is illegal - what have the police had to say? Involvement with statutory services can go a long way to providing evidence in a civil case. Be aware that if you recorded him without his knowledge it likely won’t be admissible in court, so don’t rely on that as your primary evidence of abuse.

As it stands the environment is awful for you and the kids - living there is going to be untenable. If social services are aware you’re trying to flee domestic abuse there may well be supports they can put in place given there are children involved. While I really understand wanting to stay in the marital home, if it’s unsafe for the children you may need a rethink. Legal processes are lengthy so you could be leaving them exposed to abuse for an indefinite period of time which may cause you difficulties down the line.

Social services showed a distinct lack of interest. But they have yet to interview the children, hopefully if they have the courage to be honest then it may change their stance on it.

The police took a statement and I advent heard back from them, but they said they'd liaise with the school and they have, they said they'd liaise with social services and the school seem to think that's in place too.

I thought recordings ARE admissible?

lexlaw.co.uk/solicitors-london/recorded-conversations-court-admissibility-evidence-confidentiality-disclosure-legal-advice/

OP posts:

Original poster

AllChange2022 · 12/01/2022 08:56

@Lubeyboobyalt

I'm sorry but in this case fuck the house and fuck ever going back to it - get out of there with your kids, let it eventually be sold and start again then. Houses can be replaced. Your kids need to know someone is protecting them, actively, right now. Out of there to full safety. Fully on their team. Your solicitor is a twat.

It's easier said that done; I have disability and the home is Taylor made for my requirements, also one child has autism and can't bear leaving home for even a holiday. It could be that disruption is worse than the other, short term. Especially as the ex is behaving reasonably well this past week. With a court order FORCING him to continue like that, it could be worth the 2 week wait. If it's not, then of course I will be gone in an instant.

OP posts:

GrandmasCat · 12/01/2022 09:02

You asked how do you get through living together while the occupation order was made, not what are the chances or success.

Given your children are abused and they getting more traumatised as the days go by, I would say you do NOT go through living together until the order is made, you get the hell out of there ASAP because your children are getting more damaged by staying than by moving out temporarily.

I have not RTFT but if you haven’t yet, consider ringing WA or any local domestic abuse charities that may help you find a place in a refuge if you can’t stay with friends or family.

GrandmasCat · 12/01/2022 09:03

2 weeks wait is nothing… but start planing your way out just in case it starts looking like iris going to take months or years.

FutureExH · 12/01/2022 09:50

@Lubeyboobyalt

I'm sorry but in this case fuck the house and fuck ever going back to it - get out of there with your kids, let it eventually be sold and start again then. Houses can be replaced. Your kids need to know someone is protecting them, actively, right now. Out of there to full safety. Fully on their team. Your solicitor is a twat.

Well, the solicitor is a lot closer to this case than us so I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Remember the solicitor has probably heard the recordings and prepared the statement for the application of an NMO and Occupation Order.

We on the other hand don't have the full picture. The OP could be anyone from someone at considerable risk to someone who is grossly exaggerating the situation in order to get legal aid and an occupation order. The solicitor will know which is the case and will be advising accordingly.

Freedom2022 · 07/11/2022 23:08

Hey, I was wondering how did you get on with an Occupation Order
and non Molestation order. I visited solicitors last week and they are working on my case to apply for both in court. Did you get your decision on the day and did he move out the same day?

alanbake · 25/11/2022 08:43

The family court issues an Occupation Order, which specifies who has the right to live in the family home, who can return, and who should be excluded. The Order does not affect the financial ownership of a property and is typically a short-term arrangement based on your requirements.
Our specialist Occupation Order lawyers have extensive experience in applying for and defending family-based injunctions such as Occupation Orders.
Visit our Website dv solicitors or simply contact us on +44 1234 350244.