Please help me advise a friend going through separation (children involved)

[floofs]

Name changed for this.

My friend's partner announced he was leaving her and then moved out that evening, literally clearing all his stuff and going. He had a flat already lined up. Because of Mumsnet, I have a vague idea that it is important for her to establish boundaries quickly etc regarding the children, but I know there will be issues probably coming along that I can't even conceive of.

The broad brush background:

1. They have two children (youngest is 8).
2. The house is hers
3. His income mostly helped with kids activities etc (I think). His departure does present some financial issues for her
4. He has a history of MH issue
5. He has threatened to leave several times before, and on those occasions stayed when his MH adjusted. This time he claims it is the relationship, and not MH, and he's not coming back. (I think he said this the time before too, but...)

My friend has been 'buying time' with the children who were totally distraught when he left in such a stark way. She wasn't sure if he'd be back or not, so didn't want to tell them he definitely wasn't coming back, in case he did. The children believe he is unwell and needs a bit of time to try heal. She has been very worried about what he might say to the children regarding his departure during this time, so she has asked him to leave them alone for a while and to not contact her. She is also 'raw' so hasn't wanted to see or have any contact with him at all for herself.

It has been a while and he has seen the children for one afternoon, after agreeing to strict conditions, which he complied with. But he is contacting her again now (which she is struggling with) and I don't think the current set-up is sustainable.

Please help me advise her in a way that protects her and the children in the longer term, and also helps her deal with the current situation in a way that is best for the children.

Have a look at this

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/how-to-separate1/

She is in a good position in that she owns the family home and they were not married.

If they cannot agree to access arrangements for the children then they could consider mediation. Ultimately a court could make an order based on the best interests of the children.

The father should pay maintenance for the children - there is a calculator on gov.uk as an indicator of what he should pay depending on his income. If he dies not agree to pay then she can apply via the CMS

Money wise your friend should do a benefits check on Turn2us if she does not have savings or other assets of over £16,000.

Thank you. That's helpful.

On child access, is there a general position courts take on what is considered 'reasonable' access. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if it did, my feeling is it would be better for her if she appeared 'reasonable' (as far as courts were concerned) in advance of that.

Also, bearing in mind his MH, is it reasonable for her to factor that in when considering access. I mean, WRT courts.

He's a good man. Loves his children. But often "can't cope" with pressures of very normal life, including kids chaos.

What does he want re access
What does she want re access
What do the children want ?

Her not wanting to see him should not be a barrier or reason they don’t see him. She needs to quickly put that aside
Why is she also trying to put ‘strict’ conditions??

The children are entitled to a relationship with their father and what he decides to do with the children on his time is completely up to him as long as it is not dangerous. With holding access will be frowned upon by a court if it goes that far and a starting point for access is 50/50.
I understand what she's going through, I've been there myself and it's so hard in the early days but my suggestion is to be flexible, don't ever say no straight away and don't dictate. Myself and ex came up with parenting rules such as neither of us would badmouth each other off in front of the dc, we would encourage visitation and back each other up with decisions even if we disagreed, a united front has worked really well and it has led to a fab Co parenting relationship and even though I hate the man I loved him once, the dc love him and they are happy and settled with the family dynamic. I am now 6 years down the line and the flexibility and discussion over the dcs best interests have evolved as they have grown and i have only ever had to pull the resident parent card once.

@millymolls

What does he want re access What does she want re access What do the children want ?

Her not wanting to see him should not be a barrier or reason they don’t see him. She needs to quickly put that aside
Why is she also trying to put ‘strict’ conditions??

They're not there yet. It's still very fresh. I posted here in the hope I can help get her ahead of things because this is inevitably where its headed.

By 'strict conditions' - this was along the lines of getting him to agree that he would not tell the children that he was never coming back (which is what he has said to her). She still has doubts whether he is having another breakdown or not. If he is, he might be back, as has happened before.

And also, to get him agree to not take the children to wherever his new flat is. For same reasons as above.

His MH history complicates everything.

If she is concerned that the children will come to harm in his care then she should contact SS

Otherwise as PP has said 50/50 is the starting point but most often that’s not practical esp re going to and from school, appropriate accommodation etc. The bog standard is every other weekend and half school holidays for the non resident parent

@Phillipa12

The children are entitled to a relationship with their father and what he decides to do with the children on his time is completely up to him as long as it is not dangerous. With holding access will be frowned upon by a court if it goes that far and a starting point for access is 50/50. I understand what she's going through, I've been there myself and it's so hard in the early days but my suggestion is to be flexible, don't ever say no straight away and don't dictate. Myself and ex came up with parenting rules such as neither of us would badmouth each other off in front of the dc, we would encourage visitation and back each other up with decisions even if we disagreed, a united front has worked really well and it has led to a fab Co parenting relationship and even though I hate the man I loved him once, the dc love him and they are happy and settled with the family dynamic. I am now 6 years down the line and the flexibility and discussion over the dcs best interests have evolved as they have grown and i have only ever had to pull the resident parent card once.

Your use of the word 'co parenting' has been used by her partner too, to her. However, he interprets it as him coming and going as he pleases; seeing the children when he wants; the two of them spending weekends together etc - even with new partners - for the sake of the children. That he and my friend and their future imagined partners will all get along swimmingly.

He constructs his own version of reality to suit himself. He believes that everyone will be happier with him going, but that in a year's time they will be over the hurt and living and sharing as above. He has friends who do this, so has it firmly in his head that this is a reasonable aim.

He has MH issues. Sometimes, his thought processes seem startlingly immature. We often comment that its like he lives as a character in a novel he is writing.

My friend still speaks kindly of him, and the children really are her priority. If anything, its me and another friend who are suggesting she might be better off if he doesn't come back. The children love their father very much and she acknowledges that. She also knows how painful being apart from them must be for him.

But I can see the predicament too, about protecting them from his surreal version of the future (which she won't entertain). It's almost like he's constructed a future where they can be a family, without him having to deal with any of the hard stuff or being stressed out by children's noise etc. And he could try sell this to the children, making her the evil one if she doesn't fall into line. This is why she's so fearful of what he'll say or do in her absence.

In fact, as I type, I'm appreciating how much of a buffer she has been between his MH issues and the way they could impact the children. Without her around there is no buffer, and its scary.

Are they married or not.

@VanCleefArpels

If she is concerned that the children will come to harm in his care then she should contact SS

Otherwise as PP has said 50/50 is the starting point but most often that’s not practical esp re going to and from school, appropriate accommodation etc. The bog standard is every other weekend and half school holidays for the non resident parent

They certainly won't come to the kind of harm SS would be concerned about. He's a kind man, but broken. But they might witness their father fall apart, shaking, crying, saying he can't cope. My friend has found this very traumatic to deal with herself. The children haven't ever seen it.

@Viviennemary

Are they married or not.

Not

That makes it bit easier if the house belongs to her. If he's got mental health issues and struggles to cope I think 50/50 would not be a good idea. Forget all this spending weekends together. He will never face reality if she does that.

I think your friend needs to get a routine in place for the children. One night in the week one on a weekend? This regular routine will allow them to have a relationship their father but also allow your friend to have some downtime. Same nights each week kids will soon fit in with it. Kids need routine

The family courts take the position that initially a “no order” default is best for the children i.e. it’s best if mum and dad sort out between themselves what is best for the kids in terms of custody. I don’t actually agree with this at all because I think there are people who are not aware that they and their children are victims of domestic abuse, and also there are parents who are unaware of their own rights and will go along with what an ex dictates believing they have no choice but to do so. However barring any risk of harm to the children this is usually best of course.

If it then comes to court because of concerns about risk to the children with what is able to be agreed, and/or (more commonly) the parents can’t agree on what’s best, they will likely start from whatever the “status quo” is, with a view to getting to 50/50 or as close to it as possible if both parents are asking for 50/50 or more. In the early stages of separation it won’t be just what is happening right now (which is that the kids are with her) but how their general life has been - does dad look after the kids while she goes to work etc. The “average” order at court where harm to children is not a factor often works out in reality given the way our society is structured and how things typically work out as every other weekend with dad and one school night overnight with dad unless dad lives impracticality far away. “Weekend” seems quite loosely defined by the courts, I have a friend who has the dad pick up the kids from her at 10am Sat am and bring them back at 7pm on Sunday for the “weekend”. I always did dad picking up after school on Friday and bringing back to school on Monday but this was partly at my suggestion to avoid any need for us to interact or have others present for handover etc. due to a history of domestic abuse (he also picked up from school and dropped back at school next morning in the week rather than the commoner go to mum’s after school and for tea then dad picks up for the night and brings back to mum early morning for her to do the school run - as a doctor whose ex is a nurse I was so mad when the judge suggested that this should happen - fortunately he chipped in himself to accuse the judge of being sexist in assuming he couldn’t handle the school run himself thank God!) The barrister told me later she’d never seen it done that way before, and had started recommending it as a model to others in similar situations.

I think it’s reasonable given the history that she hasn’t said “dad isn’t coming back” (as you said he might be). In general the courts would advise being open and honest with the kids about what’s happening but you’re right that this is complicated by his mental health issues (does he actually have a mental health diagnosis though?). It would not be “underhand” if it does need to come to court, to mention the mental health issues in relation to custody if your friend genuinely believes they would be at risk of harm with him due to this issue (and yes I would say the kids being exposed to him shaking and crying etc could be emotionally harmful to them , even though not intentionally as in I don’t think it would be considered emotional abuse as such due to his mental health issues). As you say when they have been together she has been able to act as a “buffer” so that’s fine, but remove that buffer and it is potentially a whole new situation for them. Having said that, be prepared for the court (and him/his representative) to ask has she ever left the kids alone with him before etc.

I agree social services are unlikely to be interested in this sort of thing in the context of a recent relationship breakdown and will say this is a civil matter and your friend needs to go to court to resolve this worry if she cannot agree a schedule with dad that will allow her to feel they are not at risk of harm. However I would say if she can agree something she can work with (which could include his seeing the kids with her or a friend or family member present if she feels that necessary for their emotional safety - be may well not be happy with that plan!) with him, that would be best. I know you think he is delusional about the “surreal future” he paints, however the courts are likely to share his idealistic vision of “how things should be post divorce” for the kids. All the more reason for this if there are concerns about your friend not being there for them as a “buffer”. They obviously won’t mandate them spending weekends and holidays together etc but it’s worth saying there are couples who do this and it seems to work well for the kids generally. Maybe not so much the adults! I totally understand if this is not going to work for your friend though and the courts will too. However both parents have rights and she doesn’t get to call the shots basically, all she can do is highlight her concerns about any risks to the children of alone with dad and let the courts decide. They are likely to want to seek a psychiatric evaluation/reports from any doctors he sees regarding his mental health. I would say better to push for a psychiatrist opinion than a GP of it comes to this. If they can’t come to agreement your friend can apply to the courts and in theory at least she will be supported in taking whatever action she thinks necessary until then to ensure the children are safe and well, however the courts will take a dim view of anything they see as an attempt to deny the father of parental rights (and sadly from experience the courts can call this wrongly and get the two issues confused). If they can’t easily come to even an initial agreement it is worth getting a solicitor involved who can lay out a proposal from her side that he is legally obliged to acknowledge and consider.

If your friend doesn’t want to have contact with him herself that’s ok to a point but if she has the kids with her she is obliged to enter into some sort of discussion as to how/when he sees them etc. This can be through a helpful family member or friend such as herself if it’s too much for her at the moment.

Contact needs to be established. However that looks long term may not be the same as right now.

If he is struggling to cope with his mental health then maybe Sunday is the best plan for now. 10am pick up. Soft play and lunch then back to mum.

Once there is an agreement in place then there is no need for any unnecessary contact. Unless he is not going to make it or running late.

I made it very clear to my ex that the only things I wanted to be contacted about is money (eventually went through CMS as he messed about so much) and times for picking up the children. We had an eow routine. He was unable to commit to anything mid week. The situation was far from ideal. He was a big drinker and living in less than savoury conditions but nothing social services would want to be involved with. He is allowed to parent his way. So long as the children don't come to any harm.

They both voted with their feet in the end. They wanted their own room/bed. And not left sleeping on sofas and ignored most of the day because of hang overs.

@Kyliealwayshadthebestdisco : Thank you so much for such a comprehensive reply. It's very helpful and you cover questions I hadn't thought to ask. Honestly - thank you for taking the time you have to write so comprehensively. And to answer your question, yes, he has been diagnosed. His GP is very very aware of his recurring problems and the impact on the family's life (especially my friend, who does her best to shield the children) and he has to work daily to keep himself on track.

@unicornsarereal72 : The idea of my children sleeping in unacceptable conditions with a hungover dad makes my blood run cold. How distressing for you. I'm glad yours managed to find a way out. I have had it in my head too that in the future, the children may be able to see for themselves when their father can't cope and make their own choices. But at the moment they're still young. Having said that, their dad has no illusions about his MH problems, so I hope would be receptive to suggestions he should pass on visits sometimes.

Thank you to all of you. I'm going to contact my friend now and suggest she comes to see the replies.