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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

International separation

8 replies

klulu · 23/09/2021 09:31

Hi,
Am looking for guidance/information/support. Met husband at uni in uk, been together 26 years and married 19. Initially our plans were to settle in UK (he is an EU national).

I went to live in his country for a year. He found permanent employment, I had a decent job. We decided to stay put. We got married and had two children. When our youngest was 5 I lost my job. Since then I have had to dash here, there and everywhere working to help make ends meet. Where I am you don't get paid each month and are incredibly lucky to get paid 3 times a year. Husband has a job but has had significant contractual cut and gets paid between 2-3 months late 8 months a year. I have been desperately worried about our financial situation for years and have told him so. The kids are dual nationals and bilingual. Since they were babies we have been spending extended periods of time back home in the UK.
When the first covid lockdown happened, I was in the UK with the kids for a week to 10 days. Then all flights were cancelled and we ended up staying for 6 months. I ended up working in the UK from June to end of August. I suggested he come and visit and that we would be back at the start of September. He refused. At the time I was also going through a cancer scare with hospital appointments and he still didn't come. Add to that his aunts and uncles and mum calling summoning us back.
When we came back in September, I realised (as did the kids) that lockdown UK life was actually better than our regular EU country life.
Things were incredibly strained with husband and my MH took a real hit. We basically live in the house and see absolutely noone and have contact with nobody at all.
The strain has led to repeated low level arguments about anything and everything. I have also come to realise that he tends to gaslight - he denies I have said things, frequently calls me crazy, disturbed and not normal... in front of the kids. I am exhausted and really cannot cope any more. I consulted a lawyer both in the UK and in the EU country (officially consulted in UK and in Italy a phone call with a friend of a friend).
This summer he said he would come and visit us in the UK if there was no home quarantine. When they removed the need to quarantine he told the kids he wasn't coming anyway. He decided to go to the beach for his 2 week summer holiday with his mum and brothers... and then proceeded to talk about his nieces most of the time he called his kids. When it came time to head back, I was incredibly reluctant. He asked me every day if I had booked flights (I was actively looking for flights) and then would also tell my daughter to tell me to book flights.

I have been offered a permanent post in the UK and I have accepted it. It doesnt start until the new year. I am well aware what accepting it means. I have always said that any chance of relocating were entirely dependent on me having secured work. This job would enable us to offer the kids a genuine future, guarantee their possibility to go to university... but he will not see it that way. I have been mentioning relocating for at least 8 years and he stonewalls me every step of the way... the occasional times he does listen he either says I'm right and things are crap but it is the way it is. Other times he says well he has a job he likes and he doesnt need to relocate. I have also suggested relocating as a family elsewhere in his country. He refuses that too.
I really do not know which way to turn...

OP posts:
comfortablyfrumpy · 23/09/2021 11:48

Hi, I've no idea what your international situation means for how you can go about things if the children were born and have lived abroad.

Did you get married in the UK? How old are the children now?
What did the UK lawyer tell you?
I am guessing how you progress from here depends on in which country you'd issue the divorce proceedings.
Wish I could help. It sounds an awful position to be in but hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along soon.

Congratulations on the job!

klulu · 23/09/2021 13:44

@comfortablyfrumpy

Hi, I've no idea what your international situation means for how you can go about things if the children were born and have lived abroad. Did you get married in the UK? How old are the children now? What did the UK lawyer tell you? I am guessing how you progress from here depends on in which country you'd issue the divorce proceedings. Wish I could help. It sounds an awful position to be in but hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along soon. Congratulations on the job!
Hi, We got married in Italy and kids were born there. Both the marriage and both kids' births were also registered in the UK. The UK lawyer suggested I try and prolong summer stay... test the water as it were. When he started ramping up pressure on me and also on kids to buy tickets I realised I really had to head back. The lawyer did say that legally speaking I can be considered as domiciled in UK as I was born and raised there and have maintained strong ties. Therefore I could file for divorce there. Only problem is Brexit as UK no longer part of Lugano Convention - it meant that whoever filed first, that country was the competent country. Now with Brexit there could be 2 cases in 2 countries with 2 rulings. My gut instinct is that we are both done and neither one wants to be first to set ball rolling as then other is at an advantage. As soon as I set ball rolling then he will never give permission for me to take kids on international travel. I really hate what we have become. I kind of feel that coming back when summoned basically has them all going 'see, told you so' and we are akin to a well-trained dog called to heel. The biggest problem is that from a brief research of case law in Italy, the courts favour co-parenting at all costs even if that means the international parent is unemployed and kids have less opportunities. The kids are really happy in the UK - they really enjoy life and activities there and I am sure they would be happy in schools there too. Certainly, they have an idea of how different it is compared to the pressure and workload in Italy. And actually when chatting with my 13 yo one evening pre-departure I asked if he was happy to return to Italy (he said yes and no) and I asked if he had missed his dad during our time there and as quick as a flash he answered 'not really' - they are hurt and angry he chose not to visit this summer. Thanks for the congrats on the job - I still have to tell OH. I feel like I am in difficult game of chess.
OP posts:
AnotherDelphinium · 23/09/2021 14:05

Do you do the majority of child care or does he? You mentioned one DC is 13, how old is the other?

Could you explain you’ve had a job offer you’ll be starting in the new year and you’ll all be therefore spending Christmas in the UK with family, and it’s up to DC if they want to move to school in the UK and you’ll facilitate it or stay in Italy with dad until the end of the school year and then see how it’s all going?

Tell the whole family at one time so he can’t advocate beforehand.

klulu · 23/09/2021 14:15

I do and have always done the bulk of childcare. I work in education and have always had a p/t post. One is 13 the other is 15.
If kids stay in Italy to finish school year I am totally sure his family will start the 'poor you, your mother abandoned you' track. They have done it previously when I was teaching a 1.5 hr flight away and away each week thurs and fri (only reason I did it was there was no local work).
OH work schedule means he is entirely unable to care for the kids. He would have to have his 81 yo mum do it. And again there would be the poor you your nasty foreign mum has abandoned you to deal with. And yes, they are old enough to know it isn't true, but if you repeat something enough then you plant a seed.
I made contact with UK school and had admission interview today. Both kids have a place guaranteed at UK school for new year. Whether they take it up or not is another thing. The sad thing is is if kids decide to stay in Italy then I will not be able to take job in UK. I cannot leave the kids. And I get how hypocritical that sounds when I say I am ok with taking the kids away from their dad.
I am being really mindful not to influence the kids (the lawyer recommended that) but have been gently testing waters by asking what if questions. Both say if I were to be offered job then I would have to accept it. As it currently stands, if my 15 yo decides to study medicine in Milan in 3 years we are going to have to say it isn't possible. I'm ok with not getting them fancy clothes or fancy holidays, but not ok with curtailing their education due to lack of work (me) and poorly and late paid work (him).
My lovely MIL told me at Christmas that my life was over at the grand old age of 48 (!!) and that I was right to be gutted I dont have proper job here but that is the way things are and if we are strapped for cash she will pay for our groceries... and I was like in my head I will bolt before I allow that to happen.
I am exhausted - my parents don't know the half of what is going on but do have some kind of inkling now.
And in all of this there is no talking, no closeness, no type of partnership of any kind and I have totally forgotten what physical displays of affection are and I hate what this is teaching the kids about relationships. Only thing it is teaching them is that one person has all the control and makes decisions that impact everyone now and in the future.

OP posts:
LadyDanburysHat · 23/09/2021 14:23

Wow this sounds like a nightmare situation. At least in the UK the DCs opinions would be taken into account, given their ages.

Is there an option to postpone the divorce for now? Would that negatively affect you?

klulu · 23/09/2021 15:57

@LadyDanburysHat

Wow this sounds like a nightmare situation. At least in the UK the DCs opinions would be taken into account, given their ages.

Is there an option to postpone the divorce for now? Would that negatively affect you?

Yep, it is that. The lawyer I spoke to in Italy practices in a different region. She said that DC would be taken into account but there is no way of knowing what local judge would decide and how much weight would be given to their wishes. I'm not set on divorce. I would be happy with a separation. We have had a horrific year and he is oblivious to it really. I wasn't sleeping more than 2 hrs a night. I was exhausted, slow thinking, slow speech. He accused me of being drunk in front of the kids (I most definitely wasn't). On occasions when kids act up, he ignores it and when I tell them to stop he tells me to shut up. I challenged him on it and he told me I was disturbed and not normal (in front of the kids). Horrible, horrible situation.
OP posts:
LadyDanburysHat · 23/09/2021 16:05

It really sounds awful. I'm just thinking if you can stay in the UK long enough with the kids, get them settled in school etc. that they will be old enough to not have to move back to Italy.

klulu · 23/09/2021 17:17

@LadyDanburysHat

It really sounds awful. I'm just thinking if you can stay in the UK long enough with the kids, get them settled in school etc. that they will be old enough to not have to move back to Italy.
That was what the UK lawyer suggested. She actually suggested I test the waters by postponing/delaying return after summer due to my mum's serious health condition. When he started asking each of the kids repeatedly to tell me to book flights, I realised that wasn't an option as it was putting the kids through too much and they were getting upset. However, in January that may be an option. I'm not a stealth operator and have a face that can be read like a book. I'm not used to keeping things secret or hidden. I've said so long out in the open that we should all move together... he has always said he is fine where he is even if it means as a family we have a seriously reduced income because I can't find proper work.
OP posts:
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