Hmmm...?

[teisted]

Just had another mediation session.

Over 15 years married
2 DC's 17 & 13 (CMS agreed)
He earns £70K
I earn £17k
His pension £50k
My pension - £5
House equity £100k

Initially STBXH was offering his £50k of equity as a "clean break". I would make no claim on pension.

Today he wants £12k of equity and "clean break". No claim on pension. Mediator seemed to think this is fair....

I always worked (albeit part time) I am now full time term time. Big earning disparity/earning potential.

I see it as: pot = £150k

He wants £62k (£50k from pension, £12k from equity) leaving me with £88k (remainder of equity) and will take on mortgage (which I've established is possible)

Does this seem fair? Just after opinions before I take the proposal to my solicitor

Honestly 88k is a good amount. The alternative would likely be a 50:50 split which given pensions are normally taken at 65% of the physical total to protect tagainst anything failed means you potentially only stand to get around 65k of you dispute it.

I would accept the 88k

I didn’t read anything about £700 CM, that’s for the children anyway. Plus they are 17 and 13 so there’s hardly decades to pay. She’s only in her 40’s, she could live for another 40-50 years. Reduced salary and a reduced pension pot are the penalisation l was referring to

@FutureExH I do not receive anywhere near £700 CM. I get £550 ish for the next 12 months, dropping to £400 after that. DC's are teens.

STBXH is pushing me to my max borrowing capacity to stay in a house no larger than needed. Whilst he has a joint income of £150k+ with which to buy a property together. They currently rent together. She owns a property.

@FVFrog

The OP will have an income of around £2.8k a month in salary, UC, CB and CM. The STBX will have an income of about £3.2k after CM.

The OP will have home equity of £88k compared to £12k for STBX. If we assume a mortgage difference of £76k between them, his housing costs will be about £300 higher than hers. Another way of looking at it is that it will take her STBX 15 years of saving his income difference simply to break even with the OP.

There is no way in these circumstances that sufficient SM would be awarded that bridged the gap on UC. He would have to pay something like £500 for the OP to be £100 a month better off. That would drop his income so far that he would actually end up worse off than the OP permanently and the objective is an equal footing and where possible a clean break. I

All that said, I do agree his pension seems a bit low and I would be suspicious of that.

@FutureExH lm intrigued about how you know OP’s financial situation better than her?!

@EL8888 indeed….

@teisted

Now, that suggests something closer to shared custody? Something like a 4/3 split? In which case on the one hand your asset needs drop slightly and his go up slightly. But then on the other hand you're not going to get CM for long, your needs are greater and you made career sacrifices. Which means I think you return to the 88/12 split of equity.

The other thing you mention is there is already another partner. I would be inclined to think on that basis you should get all of the current assets and maybe ask for 20% of his pension too. Ask for a percentage so if he is lying about the amount you can go back and take what I yours. Do you know if it is DB or DC?

@EL8888

It's not difficult to work out someone's income if you know their salary and how many children they have. I slightly overestimated though, £2.6k rather than £2.8k sounds about right based on latest info from OP. But that will drop quickly due to ages of children.

He’s not earning in spousal maintenance territory.
Op also has 30 years to pay into a pension

I do think you need to look to increase your earning ( you mention full time but only term
Time)@ currently)
You are being compensated for your contributions by getting 88% of equity and overall higher share of the assets
As stated already if the pension really us only 50k you are getting a reasonable deal and beware of costs involved to fight for small values
On 70k assuming children stay 1-2 nights with ex cms would be £700 per month although could be a little lower for his pension contributions

@EL8888 I think @FutureExH is making sweeping assumptions that our situations are the same .. if remember rightly, @FutureExH has 3 DC's of primary age. I have 2 DC's who are teens. Also, I've seen STBXH's payslip and after tax/pension etc, his earning are £4K+ - so majority of his "information" is incorrect!

I cannot state this strongly enough. PLEASE SEE A FAMILY SOLICITOR AND GET ADVICE. No one on here can advise you as to the fairness of your settlement or what you may be entitled to given your unique circumstances.

Sorry assume about 30 years available for pension contributions not 30

@FutureExH l was being facetious, after your CM proclamations. I know it’s easy to calculate monthly income if you know their salary etc. It tickled me that you said she was getting £700 when she’s not, that’s for the children so it’s a red herring anyway

@EL8888

I'm just trying to be helpful here, not judgemental. I'm presenting possible arguments based on the facts to show the OP that there is a risk involved especially if the mediator thinks the outcome is fair. OP could end up shelling out £15k in legal fees to be told actually as kids are nearly 18 she can have a Mesher and then 50/50 split of equity in five years. Even worse I've read about cases where ex-spouses have gone against the mediator, gone to court and been forced to pay the ex's costs too. You go to court, you roll a dice.

The split of opinions here are probably not that different to the split of opinions amongst judges who decide these cases either.

@FVFrog I am going to be seeking advice from a very good family lawyer. I just wanted opinions/experiences to see if my initial thoughts on the "deal" are "fair". I'm not expecting anyone on here to tell me what to do.

@teisted

If his earnings are higher than £4k per month then he's not putting any money into a pension on a salary of £70k. It might explain why pension is a low figure in that case.

@millymollymoomoo yes, I work in a school as support staff so term time. Difficult to increase earning earning potential when all of your quals/experience are in a field in which your hours are restricted and it's poorly paid!

I can't believe the ridiculous comments about "going after your ex's hard earned pension". How insulting.

My career has suffered hugely since having children. I have gone from a full time professional salary, to being a SAHM for several years and now the kids are at school all I can get an interview for are low paid positions because I've been out of the workplace for so long. I also need term time only school hours because I don't earn enough to cover significant amounts of childcare. It would hurt our family income for me to work more hours. On the other hand, my husband has doubled his salary in the same time period and his career is going from strength to strength. This is as a direct result of me taking on the lion's share of childcare over the years (which I did because he was earning just slightly more than me when we had our first and so we were marginally better off with him working and me as the SAHP).

These are decisions that we both made together and the way we decided to divide the labour to maximise the benefits (not all of them financial) to our family. If we ever divorce, you can be damn sure I'll be "going after" the pension that we BOTH worked hard to facilitate.

OP, I really think you could do with some proper legal advice. This is not a simple thing to work out.

@IWantT0BreakFree thank you You have expressed my exact thoughts. My STBH's career has also flourished - which I have enabled by being the main carer for our DC's. People seem to forget this sacrifice ...

I do have a family lawyer that I will be seeking advice from. I just wanted to air the proposal on offer to seek opinions

@teisted

With the additional info you've given I've changed my mind and I'm less convinced your settlement is fair. I don't think there are enough assets in the pot to capitalise SM. Some thoughts:

1. You will stop receiving CM in five years time and without children you will have no entitlement to universal credit on your salary. Whilst SM may not be appropriate immediately I think you should potentially have a nominal maintenance order so that you can receive extra income after your eldest is 18;

2. Partly this hinges on your ability to increase your income in the next five years and I think this depends on what job you are doing now and what your current qualifications are. You say you are support staff. If you are a receptionist then yes you could switch to another sector to work more hours, but I'm not sure you would be paid much more. If you are a higher TA on the other hand then I guess it could be argued you could retrain as a teacher to increase income but no one sensible will argue that unless you have a degree already given your age and the fact a degree would take 6 years part time. The risk you carry is that your STBX could take your CV to a recruitment agent and ask what your earning capacity is so what you need to think about is whether he would gain anything from doing so. If the answer to that is no, then keep the door open on SM.

@teisted good luck. I’m guessing you were a teacher. I was in a similar position and was told I could walk back into a full time teaching job after over 15 years out of the profession and earn roughly what I could earn had I not taken the time out
The pension is also the thing which is standing out which worries me. You need a pension and I am very suspicion at the 50k figure.
I ended up settling (through mediation with legal advice) but I am three years down the line and regretting I didn’t push harder. It wears you down and is emotionally exhausting and you end up settling just to be done with it. Look at where you will realistically be at @60. Can you realistically still do your job at 60? Do you need to consider taking time out to retrain/requalify to boost your earning and pension provision? Could you get support for a few years to enable you to do this? Are you still effectively compromising your own earning potential now to be around for your kids for the next few years while your ex’s continues to work unhindered by childcare responsibilities? I get that they are older but they still need a present parent.

@IWantT0BreakFree

I think the reason people get animated about this is because the courts don't seem to distinguish whether the financially weaker spouse gave up a career like you or never had a career and chose low-income work before cohabitation, marriage and children. The two scenarios should in many people's minds be different although there is of course a third scenario where neither parent had a career until the first child was born and then one pursued a career to generate more income for the family. Once you realise that, then it should become clear that whilst the SAHP did not have a career before children, they could have developed one after children if split of care was more even.

I get the sense courts don't want to get involved in decisions like this though and instead focus on need generously. I don't think they could do it any other way.

@teisted

Sorry, one other thought. You say you work in a school which implies that you may have a DB pension? If so, you might want to quietly get it valued. unlike DC pensions, CETV of a DB pension is often much more than face value. Come to think of it, I assumed your STBX had a DC pension - if he's in the public sector or has been with the same employer for a long time he might have a DB pension too and it might be worth a lot more than £50k.

@FutureExH just read your latest comment fully. You make excellent points. It’s the continued disparity in earning/pension potential which often so discriminates against whoever has taken time out for family reasons.
My situation is probably clouding my view, but the amount my ex has to pay me annually is less than his net annual bonus and his pension is way bigger. I negotiated off pension to get equity to get a house so my older teenage DC had a Homebase while they are in higher education. I will have to sell in a few years to release equity for pension. I have always worked (around his work/travel commitments) and continue to do so. His career and large pension contributions from employer, private health care etc continues unhindered.

@FVFrog

Your describing my own problem to a tee there. Benefit rules mean a lot of us who would be payers can't afford to "bridge the gap" because SM reduces benefits. This matters less to the OP because her children are older and she can't get universal credit only 5 years from now whereas my STBX can get UC for 14 years.

So, in my situation and presumably yours too, they give the weaker party more assets. The trouble with assets like a house is that you can't pay the gas bill with it. So a lot of resident parents are asset rich but have cash flow problems. The ex can't help because it would just reduce the benefits if they do. I

The other problem is the assumption that the resident parent has time to adjust. Realistically in my case I will do all I can to share care so my STBX can work a job that is not term time or school hours only when she retrains but that only works because she is young enough and started 3 years ago already. Also, it has a sting in the tail because by reducing my hours to share care my income drops and therefore so too does the assumed CM she can receive when seeking a mortgage for example. Even though I plan to pay an amount as though she had the DCs 100% of the time, the mortgage company will not always work on that basis because it can be adjusted down.