Sorry another pension question - pension started prior to marriage

[bananamango]

Hello and sorry for posting yet another pension question - about pensions that existed prior to the marriage.

My STBXH has quite a few different private pensions from all the different jobs he had through a 30+ year career. He moved jobs quite a lot but that was common in his field.

He has two that he was in before I met him. I think the rule of thumb has been that I am not entitled to a share of those. But I've found a big report online by the 'Pensions Advisory Group' (chaired by two judges and dated July 2019) that seems to say that this isn't necessarily the case. Is that right?

Also, given that those funds grew significantly in the 20 years of our marriage, am I entitled to any share of the 'growth'? Or is that just too complicated?

I don't want to sound like I am grasping for every last penny, as even without that our marital asset pot is enough for me to be fairly secure. And in fact I don't want to grab every last penny. I just like to know the rules about everything before I start dealing with him as he worked in finance and is really savvy whereas I'm not.

Just to add, I spent about 14 years as a SAHM of three kids, one with special needs. Have worked at same job since returning to work 6 years ago.

Thanks everyone as ever for your amazing help and advice.

In England everything is in the pit for consideration
Depending on the value of the pot and the needs going forward and arriving at a fair split pre marital assets could be excluded. However.m, generally fir a long marriage who owned what prior to marriage is not relevant, it’s considered joint

The idea is to look at needs, earnings, plus potential and equalise things

Preacquired pension can be an argument, but in your circumstances, I would expect a court to take all the pensions into account.

My partner accrued 16 years of a pension prior to meeting his ex wife. The judge discounted it.

There has been a recent case which basically says where it's a long marriage all the pension pot is taken into account and it should be a split based on equality of income.
You may need an actuary report.

Having done a quick search, the whole pensions and divorce sounds extremely complicated, with no hard and fast rules. This document, although lengthy, might make for interesting reading.

www.nuffieldfoundation.org/sites/default/files/files/Guide_To_The_Treatment_of_Pensions_on_Divorce-Digital(1).pdf

@Northernsoullover

My partner accrued 16 years of a pension prior to meeting his ex wife. The judge discounted it.

There could be several reasons for that. Not taking account of pensions prior to marriage isn’t automatic.

OK. How much money are you talking about?

[quote Soontobe60]Having done a quick search, the whole pensions and divorce sounds extremely complicated, with no hard and fast rules. This document, although lengthy, might make for interesting reading.

www.nuffieldfoundation.org/sites/default/files/files/Guide_To_The_Treatment_of_Pensions_on_Divorce-Digital(1).pdf[/quote]
Thanks @Soontobe60 that's the report I'd found and (tho you are right it is massive) I've had a decent look through and that's where I got the idea that, as you said, discounting pensions prior to marriage is no longer automatic. I guess I'll ask my lawyer. Just wondered whether anyone on here had any experience of it as I'd just always automatically assumed (and so did he!) that his previous ones would not go into the marital assets.

@ThisIsStartingToBoreMe

OK. How much money are you talking about?

Thanks @ThisIsStartingToBoreMe - hope I'm not boring you! I do feel bad posting about money - sounds like it's all I care about. And even without, eg this pension I'm talking about here, I will be financially secure. But as a 'woman of a certain age' and one who has never been used to asking for things - I've def not been an expensive wife - I just worry about my old age. I was a SAHM for 14 years and I worry about the impact on my state pension and my ability to look after myself if anything goes badly wrong in future. I'm not from this country and have no family here to call on if that happens.

I have absolutely no idea how much this pension is worth, we haven't exchanged Form Es yet so I know that this is the thing we must do ASAP otherwise I don't even know what I'm worrying about. There are two from before the marriage which together account for about 12 years of work (contributing to private pension with work contributions which I think would have been generous - City guy) roughly 87-99. So by this stage they might be worth a lot??

He was pushing really hard to do mediation but I eventually said no because of all the argument/acrimony and now he thinks that means I want to totally rip him off - which I do not. He claimed he was trying to save lawyer costs but I always wondered whether he was trying to slightly do a snowjob on me as he is so much more financially literate than me.

Thank you so much for your help.

@iloverock

There has been a recent case which basically says where it's a long marriage all the pension pot is taken into account and it should be a split based on equality of income. You may need an actuary report.

Thanks so much @iloverock that's really helpful. Yes I had a feeling we should get an actuary report - if only so that we have a definitive statement of what they are all valued at and so that we don't have to argue about that. Although we probably will!

My friend is mid divorce, her H told her she couldn’t touch his pensions from before their marriage. Her lawyer doesn’t agree

Depends, as others have said, on length of marriage. If it's considered a long marriage, then potentially everything is in the pot.

It might be that you'll need to get a report done by a pension expert (that's something that was ordered at my first hearing).

Have you got legal advice? I think you need to see a solicitor, if you haven't already.

Currently going through a divorce and doing financial analysis - albeit in Scotland, so not sure how different the law is in England. Here, to the best of my understanding, you would be entitled to a share of encumbered assets, which includes a share of what was paid into a pension during the course of the marriage. My solicitor is getting the CETV (cash equivalent transfer value, I think) of each pension, and then can work out, based on dates, what amount of that value is encumbered. That amount then goes into the pot of assets and is split according to whatever you agree - as a starting point, everything in my case is 50/50. So whatever your ex paid into a pension prior to marriage may not be considered encumbered and you may not be entitled to any of it, but anything paid in or accrued after marriage should form part of the marital assets.

I appreciate that may be significantly different in England, or for different circumstances, and would suggest you get a good solicitor to take you through all the possible variations and outcomes. It's not a cheap option but it's worth it for the reassurance, support and peace of mind as much as the solid legal advice! I'd recommend mine but they're Scottish... hope you find a good one.

Wait and see how much money there actually is and then think about how to divide it. Thats why I asked how much it was. Some pensions only have £1 or £2k in them, hardly worth worrying about.

@ThisIsStartingToBoreMe

Wait and see how much money there actually is and then think about how to divide it. Thats why I asked how much it was. Some pensions only have £1 or £2k in them, hardly worth worrying about.

Ah ok thanks v much. No ... I think there will be a lot more than £2k

@TravellingJack thank you for your msg. I ac sully think the law is a bit different in England but don't quote me on that! I do now have a great lawyer thanks. I had one old local guy who just wouldn't actually answer any of my questions - just kept saying how he'd been in the game a long time and had 'seen it all'. But that didn't wash and I continually felt worried and confused and ended up not sleeping. The woman I have now is absolutely brilliant and I nearly cried with relief the first time I spoke to her. Glad you are really happy with yours.