When to appoint a solicitor /child arrangement order

[Kindredskillet]

Hi , With the coming of the New Year I've decided to embark on divorcing my STBXH following a 4 year separation. I'm hoping to do this all myself on the gov.uk website to keep costs to a minimum- we have no assets. The only potentially contentious issue is arrangements for our 2 dc. Currently we have 50/50 shared custody (though never. been anything formal in place just a verbal agreement) in the form of having them every other day literally one day here one day there etc. I don't feel this arrangement works anymore or is in the kids best interest as it's literally exhausting, they feel like they are being pulled from pillar to post and can't get into any routine. They lug bags backwards and forwards I'm always lumbered with the washing and do 90% of pick ups and drop offs. They both have Behavioral issues and are at a crucial time. My eldest is about to study for GCSEs and youngest starts secondary school in September. My aim is stop to stop him seeing the kids and they love their dad, however would like to have them a bigger chunk of the time, consecutive days, ideally every week so I can oversee homework etc and him having them every other Thursday night-Monday evening.

This will mean a change from having them 7 nights each out of every fortnight he will have 4 nights and I will have 10.

I suspect he will not agree to this as he is terrified of being made to pay maintenance and the child benefit he currently gets for 1 dc ( we claim for 1 dc each)

My understanding is if we can't agree I have to apply for a child arrangement order. My questions are, does this all need to be done before I can apply for the divorce or can I apply for this at the same time?

Also should I appoint a solicitor now or can I wait and see how it pans out and if we have to go to court?

Lastly, is it right we'd have to attend mediation before the child arrangement order can be applied for? Can I still apply and it's just not heard at court before mediation or can you not even apply.
Who pays for the mediation and what if he doesn't attend?
Any experiences of mediation for this sort of thing as the thought of it makes me feel ill. He really pushes my buttons.

TIA

How old are the children as if they are teenagers they’ll likely get to decide . What do they want?

Any reason why they can't continue with 50/50 and you want to decrease the time? They have had a very unsettling routine so far for 4 years, granted, and should be more stable- maybe one week with each parent? Your children will get to have a say, have they asked their dad to spend more time with you, or is it you that wants the change on time spent with each parent?

Firstly, as PP said, given their age, what the children want will be taken into account. Secondly, the court will likely be reluctant to change things drastically without good reason. You might end up with more consecutive days but still 50:50 as if their father currently has them half the time the court won't want to reduce it without very good reason.

You have to consider mediation and attend an information meeting. If you don't want to go ahead the mediator can sign your application form but it might not go down well in court. Yoh will each pay for mediation.

You don't have to have a solicitor for child arrangements but you might feel more comfortable with one.

If you can prove low income you may not need to pay for mediation but it's expensive otherwise. Applying for a CAO costs £215 and that's all if you represent yourself.

Bouncing around like that isn’t great, no wonder they’re so unsettled.
At the ages they are, their views should be taken into account. if 50/59 is to continue it really ought to be in set blocks, say a week at a time, rather than odd days. Poor souls, they won’t know if they’re coming or going.

Mediation would be my advice. You can also have child-inclusive mediation where the kids get to express their views. That, to me, would seem the sensible option at this stage.

50/50, not 50/59!

Oh, sorry - costs should be split between you. Shuttle mediation can be used if you really can’t be in the same room, but ideally if it’s for the sake of the arrangements for the children I’d at least try it. Some courts will not entertain your application until you’ve mediated (which is how they’re supposed to react), others don’t seem to care and will allow you to apply without trying. Depends where you are.

Thank you for the replies.

My eldest almost 16 has expressed a desire to spend more time with me. The youngest who's 10 I haven't yet had a serious discussion with. How strongly would a 10 year olds view be taken into consideration? I suspect if questioned she would just want things to stay the same, she would want to keep everyone happy.

Would the courts take into consideration the arrangement we've had up until now. I was hoping when starting the divorce process it would be a from scratch arrangement rather thank considered a change legally as there has never been a formal agreement in place.

I wouldn't a mind a compromise however would not be happy at not seeing them for a whole week at a time, I think for girls at their age this is too long away from their mother.

How do I go about booking mediation? I'm willing and able to pay but not sure about their dad.

Find a local mediator - google or recommendation, meet with them and they can contact him to see whether or not he's interested in attending.

The court will take into account previous contact arrangements despite them being informal. I'm not a solicitor, just someone who has been through the court arranging contact several times but I think it's unlikely contact for the 10yo would be reduced from 7 in 14 to 4 in 14 if your ex didn't want it.

By the way, 50:50 is often not a whole week and then swapping. Lots of families do something where they have a two week schedule where the children are with each parent for 2 days one week then 5 the next, for example.

The courts would take into account current arrangements yes especially to reduce from 50% to much less so expect something more that retains that but structured in separate way

The 16 yr old is likely to just be able to decide when and where - rightly
The 10 year olds views would certainly be taken into consideration

Ultimately it will be down to you to put forward a very strong case as to why it’s in their interest to change and ultimately drastically reduce time with dad ( which in my personal view is not right although I agree current routine is not a good one )

Unless it is your 16 your old who has SN then it is completely up to them which parent they spend time with when and no court will decide for them.

In regards to your 10 year old work really hard with your ex to stay out of Court. It is better in the child's interests in the long run for you both to allow them to change which parent they see when rather than to have an Order.

There has been a significant precedent set with the 50-50 arrangement for 4 years so unilaterally to change this won't go down well and given the youngest is unlikely to want to change this, you'd be better of trying to keep things amicable and maybe offer a split week. I don't think moving to an every other week situation is fair on the children or him.

You could offer Thurs to Monday every week as set days if they're your day preferences. But I think that you should both get a quality day so maybe actually having the weekends halved could work with alternating the Saturday overnight.

From all of the times I have liaised with parents I would find it difficult to see a court awarding this without the youngest being on board. They may order two different arrangements but this is going to get messy and tbh I'm really not sure this is in the best interests of the children to go such little contact, however a more consistent pattern of contact could be. And tbh if this was your concern you'd push aside your needs for not wishing for alternative weeks....
Now the elder child will obviously have a voice in cafcass but saying purely based on her gender she needs you more is tosh! Sorry so you need better reasons than that given its worked at what was probably the most difficult teenage years.

Go via mediation if you cannot discuss this. But that will immediately be getting his back up and I imagine he probably will argue parental alienation as well as it sounds as though you've done a good job of working on the elder for your own ends.....

I'm so tired at seeing threads implying Dad's only want 50/50 to prevent maintenance. How about the mums who don't want 50/50 as then they won't get any money?
And why should he agree to 4 nights out of fourteen when he currently has 7? He's their Dad just like you are their Mum. And the children have a right to a proper relationship with both of you. You don't want to not see them for a whole week at a time? I'm sure he doesn't want such a long gap either. And it's actually about what is in the best interests of the children. Not you. Not him. The children.
And unless you meet the exemptions criteria you have to have mediation pre court for a CAO.

I understand some of the replies.

My OP was to understand the process required to make a change to child arrangements, how this fitted in with applying for a divorce and any legal representation required.

The reasons for wanting the change to be as it is I didn't feel was needed for the above but considering the (understandable) criticism it clearly is.

Firstly you don't know him i know, he is driven my the fear of maintenance- I don't and will not want any from him- he has said as much.

Also on 'his' nights he doesn't engage with them or do anything with them and is usually plugged into his games console. On 'his' weekends they are always without fail on sleepovers so I doubt he will worry about parental alienation.

They also grumble about what they've eaten- with him frozen processed food usually, the lack of toiletries there ( I provide for both houses) and bring all the washing to mine.

I know none of this constitutes neglect.

I also do 100% of the school runs whether I've had them the night before or not as my work allows for this and his doesn't.

Cannot get to school themselves due to distance.

When we first separated we lived on same road and they could walk between/ pop in and out and every other day was kind of fallen into. Now we live 20 minutes car journey apart ( each way) it's not as logistically

This is solely motivated by doing what is best for the children certainly not for me. I have nothing to gain as I travel backwards and forwards every day anyway and every other night to myself without responsibilities is not a hardship for me.

I certainly have not ‘worked on’ my eldest she volunteered her preference though it was stated casually.

My youngest has not expressed an opinion either way my guess is that she would want things to stay the same as she would be of the opinion this is the best response to keep both parents happy as is her nature. If anyone will work on the kids for their own agenda - knowing his form- it will be STBXH, but that’s another thread!

The only thing that might be seen as relevant if it got to court is the chaos of swapping so often. None of what you have said about what he does when they are there or what they eat will be paid any attention whatsoever.

The best thing is to try and reason with him to come up with a 50:50 arrangement with less moving around. You could do that almost immediately if handled the right way, whereas the divorce will take longer.

Sounds to me like you don't need a court order. You just have to create a plan yourselves.

If you did go to court, and I don't see why, the court would and will take into account children's desires. They are old enough to express it.

Court is a last resort. And it will cost a lot in legal fees.