MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on the Child Maintenance Service - an MP wants to know your views

[BojanaMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have asked us to share details of an upcoming debate on the Child Maintenance Service. Here's what they say.

"Martyn Day MP argues that “the current Child Maintenance Service system is letting down many constituents across Great Britain – both paying and receiving parents. I would like all children to benefit from receiving maintenance payments that are consistent and compatible with the paying parent’s income level.”

"On Tuesday 23 July, he will lead a Westminster Hall debate on the effectiveness of the Child Maintenance Service. He wants to hear about your experiences to help inform his debate.

"Have you had a positive experience in your dealings with the Child Maintenance Service?
If not, what were some of the issues you faced?
What would make the Child Maintenance Service work better for you?

"We’ll pass your comments on to him and he may use your examples during his debate. We’ll post links to watch the debate and read the transcript when they become available on Tuesday 23 July.

"Please submit your comments before midday on Monday 22 July.

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"Your name, and any information or opinions you provide, may be shared with Martin Day MP and used in a parliamentary debate which will be on the record and available on Parliament TV and Hansard. Please ensure that you are happy with your comment before sharing.

"To see our online discussion rules, please visit:

www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/bicameral/taking-part-in-the-uk-parliament-social-media-community/"

A few things need to change.

Non payment or avoidance of payment needs to be treated as a criminal offense. If someone avoids tax, it's treated as a criminal offense.

There shouldn't be reductions if the parent that is to pay has more children. Why on earth is that? Does a resident parent suddenly get a pay rise or have to pay out less if they have another child?

HMRC should be working alongside CMS to track where paying parents are working a lot quicker to do the DEO.

They should assign a certain amount of cases to each employee instead of the messy all over the place system they have at the moment. Less phone calls, less 'catching up' on cases etc would mean a more fluent system.

They should be involving debt collectors once arrears reach a certain amount.

If arrears reach high levels, they should be able to put leans against properties/cars/expensive possessions.

Overall, they need to take maintenance more seriously. If a resident parent decided they weren't going to pay anything for their child, that child would starve. Why should non resident parents get away with paying nothing for THEIR child? They are basically saying they'd let that child starve.

Oh, to add something else, men who give up work and claim benefits or don't earn anything as they get a new partner and dodge paying maintenance by using this sneaky system should be penalised. If CMS finds them fit to work, their payments should resume. I've seen a lot of cases on another forum where women have written saying 'We have a child, my partner has 2 children from a previous relationship, if he stays at home with our child and I go to work, does this mean no maintenance will need paid?'. These women seriously are low. Would they like nothing being paid towards their child? So she gets free childcare by having him at home and he dodges having to pay anything, so wrong! Once you have children, every choice you make there on in, needs to be in the best interests of your original children. Of course you are free to go on and have more but doing so affects what you can do for your original children, you should be penalised!

I applied to CMS on 24 August 2016

7 September 2016 received letter confirming receipt of application for variation of income.

1 October 2016 received confirmation of payments at £114.37 per month. ( not taking into account additional income)

9 May 2017 sent complaint letter as despite making phone calls on 21 February, 20 March, 24 April no payment received from X.

Included information on Directors Loan at £99,500 to support my claim that his £12,000 income he had informed CMS was false.

X had also told CMS that he was paying me £641 per month - this too was false as this was a salary from the company - sent proof of this to CMS.

X paid 8 months outstanding payments on 2 May 2017 as I had told him I was contacting them with this complaint letter.

15 September 2017 receive letter from CMS re variation application.

28 September 2017 reply to CMS tell them I have been dealing with HMRC as a result of X declaring dividends in my name over two tax years which I did not receive but had to pay tax on them to avoid getting into tax arrears. Told them this would increase his earnings.

X now paying me weekly CMS of £65.20 as per their annual review letter of 20 August 2017.

6 December 2017 I contact my local MP for help

In addition had made phone calls to CMS on 1 June, 26 June, 1 August, 18 August, 30 November, 6 December,

On 9 January 2018 I called for update - completely lost it during this phone call - told them was feeling suicidal as a result of incompetence

10 January 2018 receive notification payments will be £1214.78 from 1 February 2018.

15 January 2018 received letter saying they had been informed contact nights had changed and had to confirm.

15 January 2018 x emails me telling me he has started Mandatory Reconsideration and will be paying me £570.60 from 1 February and will continue at this until Mandatory Resolution is complete -

16 February 2018 receive letter from CMS telling me have conducted their review and original decision is correct ie at £1214.78.

6 March 2018 I send letter to CMS confirming I have been told that X is taking this to appeal and has been told by CMS he can keep payments at £570.60 until this has concluded. I send through confirmation of house he has just bought in addition to the rental property he has at £1600 per month.

I tell CMS that I am extremely vulnerable emotionally and financially and have just had to resume further counselling to cope with the stress. I have a long term diagnosis of depression with symptoms currently severe and triggered by knowledge of court hearing.

Divorce process was extremely acrimonious with X using system to abuse me and now doing the same. ask for information to be assessed without court hearing.

20June 2018 receive letter from CMS telling me that they have used incorrect tax years.

28 June 2018 receive letter from CMS with detailed explanation of case for 1stTier Tribunal. It is clear from this that CMS have noticed some incidents with X where he attempts to manipulate situation by sending incorrect information, claiming to have misunderstood telephone conversation and generally delaying process.

9 July 2018 I reply to CMS sending evidence of how he manipulated court process for divorce in same way and that due to his profession and high status there is no way he would be “confused” by form filling and “numbers”

State this is continual abuse having significant impact on me and children.

30 August 2018 annual review says payments now £482.03 from 1 September 2018.

13 September 2018 receive notification hearing booked for 1 November 2018.

2 October 2018 send email to CMS telling them that information for tribunal is out of date and that I have had numerous telephone calls with CMS. The team leader who told X that he could reduce payments to £570.60 did not have authority to do this. The “system” had assumed X had been paying me £1214.73 and a new figure had been arrived at including arrears of £4700. I ask for information as to how they have calculated these figures but I am told that due to Data Protection Act they are unable to give me more information. I say without this information I am unable to confirm if figures are correct, that X may now not proceed with appeal and want to know what powers they have to order arrears are paid as lump sum. I say I have evidence confirming he lied in court and my concern is he will do the same again.

No reply to email so send a letter 10 October 2018 saying that evidence for tribunal is out of date, need to see what they have used in their calculations as without this have no idea whether X is still lying to them and if court hearing goes ahead without new evidence it will be waste of time. I also need time to assess this before court hearing due to depression.

Receive notification that this letter has been copied to X as part of “court evidence”

10 October 2018 receive notification that X has withdrawn his appeal.

I have written to courts asking why my letter was sent as “evidence” in error I believe when I was asking for clarification. No reply.

I have not had the capacity to follow up on this, X has been paying the ordered amount although this stops on 1 September 2018.

My kids are 18 (twins), they intend to go to uni. Child benefit stops.

I have limited income due to depression which is severe. I am facing other severe life stressors at the moment which means my day to day functioning is limited.

I had one person who took my telephone call seriously and told me that my case should have been sorted out months ago - that it should never have got to the stage it did and that X should have been told to pay what was ordered.

Just putting this together now has triggered off my anxiety and lots of emotion.

A system meant to protect my children failed them miserably. Without my children ( now adults in terms of CMS) I would not have put myself through this. I have no idea how I am going to support my kids after 1 September - I cannot guarantee that X will “help out” as he says he will.

I feel I am hanging on by the skin of my teeth!

Women’s Aid press office have said they will talk to me if I want this - too many people and far too many children are suffering.

I appreciate you taking this on and hopefully you can make some changes.

Just meant to add - during divorce process - child maintenance was being “discussed” through solicitors and part of overall settlement. As X offer was always in the region of £600 per month was told not to accept.

What I was not told was that the courts had no power to enforce this in final hearing unless we agreed - which we did not. Had I been aware of this or told this by my solicitor I would have applied for this as soon as he left!

ladies please take note - apply through CMS from day 1 regardless of your situation - there needs to be a record of how many are abusing the system - I know there are some who don’t because of the hassle and because there is a fee to pay - why do we have to pay this - this should be added to the non paying parents debt.

I was also appalled to read how the CSA wrote of unpaid maintenance as it was too costly to chase up - this is not their “debt” as such - they are not owed the money - they are just middle men - and ineffective middle men at that - is the children that suffer

Fathers need to be made to be accountable - and this needs to tie in with contact. A father ( yes I know there are some mothers) who does not support his child financially is incapable of supporting a child emotionally and this is therefore continual abuse of the child and by default the mother ( I’m speaking generally here I do get there may be some who can do one without the other - I’m talking in the context of CMS before I get slated!)

[quote Amibeingdaft81]@BojanaMumsnety @BojanaMumsnet

Does mumsnet get involved out of genuine desire to help or is this something that you have been paid to promote?[/quote]

Hi,

No, we don't get paid at all by Parliament's team for doing these - we just think it's useful and relevant for MNers and are happy to help the Parliament team spread the word.

Former civil servant here who worked in csa under the 2003 scheme (new rules) then trained over to cms 2012 scheme.

So i was there when they announced the new changes and consultation papers were released. I and pretty much all of my colleagues all agreed it was never going to work when they announced bringing in charges for applications; the reason being the service level no where near good enough.
Management were too focussed on stats and targets, to the detriment of whats actually going on with cases.
The actual system we were retrained on meant that cases didnt stay with a particular case officer to see a task through. Was nothing worse than dealing with a quite rightly upset parent and assuring them of xyz only to find that the case had been moved to another queue to be dealt with.
I also feel its too easy for the paying parent to avoid paying through job hopping and self employed were quite frankly a fucking joke. Again nothing worse than having parents on phone cos they are getting a pittance while the paying parent is jetting off on 4 hols a year and living life of riley.
Hows that fair to those children??

And wrt to chasing unpaid debt, was always my understsnding that while those children may no longer qualify for maintenance they were still entitled to any arrears accrued regardless of what system they were on. I know when the change over happened letters were issued asking if parents wanted arrears pursuing. Has that changed since??

Nothing but problems in the 4.5 years I've been dealing with them. Unfortunately my DD father also has 2 children with another ex partner and at one point I hadn't received any money for 6 months or more but when I telephoned CMS I was told they hadn't received any money from the paying parent, when I called again and spoke to someone else I found out it's because the other ex parent had been getting all the money for her DC and apparently "the computer" hadn't shared it out fairly.
So I agree with that it largely depends on who you get to speak to.
Then I got a lump sum but still didn't receive any more money for a period of time when I telephone they said the money was meant to be on automatic allocation but it wasn't therefore I needed to wait further until someone got around to doing it. Why can't it just be a case of pressing a simple button on a computer

I was lucky in that my maintenance was set up via the magistrates court (a long time ago now). My ex tried it on, and a warrant was issued immediately, he appeared in court and was told to go to the ATM and get the arrears, bring it back to the court that day. He only missed a couple of payments in the intervening years and an automatic letter was sent to me and him asking why, with the threat of another warrant. Those were the days, clearly.

It was only when I got my MP involved that they actually started seriously pursuing maintenance. He got away with years of non payment.

It was at this point they talked about some kind of enforcement like putting a charge on property for the arrears. Why did they not follow through? Why do the NRP (normally men) never face the legal sanctions that exist. They know how to play the system and create as many delays and problems as possible and that nothing will happen to them.

Even with a DOE in place maintenance is sporadic. Job hopping means a 0 assessment and then months before new payments are set up. Ex then changes job and we are back to square 1 again.

When you watch Judge Judy you see that the Americans have the right attitude and they actually will enforce the payments, including jail for persistent non payers.

The fact the government has not sorted this out proves how low down women and children are on their priorities.

@Hairwizard, the fact you have said what you said and that you worked (or claim to have worked) for the CMS exemplifies the attitude they take to paying parents (or fathers as I'm sure you meant).

Just out of interest, in your experience, how many people working there were male and female? It's well known that CAFCASS and child social services are 86% female... these services which aren't meant to discriminate against any particular party unfortunately dont have a diverse employee group to accomplish this.

My ex deliberately works abroad whilst having a UK home. He's set it up exactly so he's a non UK Tay payer, because he's opted to be paid by the Dutch head office and pays Dutch taxes.

Ridiculously his £250,000 salary is deemed untouchable by the CMS, despite him openly laughing to anyone how this works for him. They calculate his liability as Zero. REMO can't touch him as he is a UK resident, purely listed as a non UK tax payer.

The whole thing would be liable if he were paid by the UK branch. So my child has got zero from this UK father because he chooses to go on a Dutch payroll and work out there. This needs addressing immediately.

I worked for them for 8 years, 2008 to 2016.
Very mixed group of male and female staff, dont think it was heavily male or female.
Most of my colloeagues like myself really tried to do our best for parents, only to end up frustrated at times with how things were set up.
Then you have the select few who didnt give a fuck and i wondered how the hell did they ever get the job??
Never so glad to get out of a job as i was there.
They defo should take enforcement action more seriously too.

And i would add that i used the term paying parent not father as i noticed more and more non resident parents were female and my experience of female paying parents for most part they were worse than the fathers.

@Courtney555

What country did you get divorced in?

Never married....

If Uk resident than generally has to pay tax on foreign income, which would mean CMS can get involved

Yes...I know. The whole point is that he doesn't have to pay any UK tax on it. He's somehow set himself up via a loophole that enables him to be UK resident, but "non resident for tax purposes".

It's disgusting, my child is literally being denied thousands every year because he made a deliberate choice to work under the umbrella of their Dutch office and be paid via the Dutch tax system. He's a UK resident, flaunting a zero taxable UK income.

This needs to be rectified by parliament immediately.

Continuing support until parental contributions end (25 I think) makes sense

Im 23 and have a house, fiance and child. Id be frankly embarrased to have mummy and daddy paying for me at 25. 18 is fine.

Nobody has to go to university. Its a choice and therefore you cant expect contributions from anyone towards it.

My experience is that the cms are actually a bit useless. As pp said we got different info every time. Never got a call back, ever.

More training needed in general.

Dp found them massively dismissive of him. They seemed to take everything his ex said as gospel but he had to send in 10s of documents to prove all sorts because they wouldn't take his word for it.

His ex denied that their child lived with us and was believed. We had to prove otherwise.

When their child moved back with her nobpdy even consulted dp about it just sent him a letter closing his claim and then another with his payments to her.

A big issue is that payment is partly based on contact but number of nights.

Makes no sense as a child could be at the paying parents house 8am - 8pm 7 days a week but that parent would pay the resident parent the full amount as if they had no access at all. We found ex used this against us and access she demanded was 7am - 9pm 2 days a week and only one over night rather than 3 because she knew more overnights meant less maintenance.

Also think payments should take into consideration both paying and reciving parents income.

Completely disagree that futher children shouldn't get taken into consideration. If that happens it would just further cement the view that second families are second class citizens and only deserve the dregs of what's left.

Haha glad you asked. My ex left me in 1999 with a 1 year old. He had regular weekend access and a fixed address barely 10 miles away. Despite holding all his details, in over 12 years the CMS or whatever they were called in those days failed to get a penny from him. And before you ask, he was emotionally abusive and flatly refused to give me a penny. Apparently by 2010ish he owed me many thousands and I got regular letters saying this or that was being done but never received fuck all. I don't know if you're asking about the era I refer to but I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that in my experience the relevant office was worse than useless, literally the most hapless and shit organisation I've ever encountered. Oh the irony when I nearly got threatened with prison for missing a council tax payment. 18 years , bigger sum of money by far, and he pays nothing and receives no consequences. What a load of utter shite.

Think my opinion is irrelevant but gawd that felt good to get off my chest!

I got a payment for £9 today. I've had payments between 0 and £300 a month with no explanation why or notice of the change. This is collect and pay.

Why when the CSA moved over to CMS did all claimants have to reclaim? I was getting my payments every 2 weeks no problem but my ex husband wouldn't agree to a new claim through CMS, said he would give me the money. That was over 2 years ago & I haven't received a penny. Why should the fact my ex husband gets over £300 per week in benefits mean that I am only due to £7 a week CMS payment if I could actually get him to pay? If he was working, I would get £45 a week. My son still needs the same amount of clothing, shoes, school expenses, yet my ex husband doesn't give any contribution to them. The CMS service is a joke & having to pay to use it is an even bigger joke, it is time it was returned to the courts to handle, it was a much better service.

"If that happens it would just further cement the view that second families are second class citizens and only deserve the dregs of what's left." Rubbish! The precise OPPOSITE is the reality! Older children for whom cm is due are CONSTANTLY treated as if they should be grateful for whatever crumbs of affection, practical support or financial support they get from the nrp while second families enjoy all of that and more!