How do financial negotiations work? Feels impossible

[spritesobright]

I am just wondering how the process actually evolves? STBXH and I both have solicitors. He wanted to do collaborative law but I felt uncertain about this because he can be bullying/intimidating. Mediation was a nightmare when we tried it.
My solicitor said not to rule out collaborative approach but to start out with offers.
So she sent a proposal to them and he claimed I was being outrageous and he would have to take me to court.
I told him it was an opening offer and if he thought it unreasonable he should make a counter offer. I am in no way fixed to that initial proposal.

So now he's considering it but wants to come up with something himself (through discussions with me) and then take it to our solicitors.

I don't feel like I can stand up to him or necessarily know what I should get. The whole thing feels impossible. How does this work without going to court?

If he isn't willing to counter offer then unfortunately court is the only way.

If he at least makes an offer then you obviously both know you will be heading towards the middle or a combination of those offers

I successfully did solicitor led shuttle mediation. The mediator is a solicitor and they shuttle between rooms to strike a deal. The advantage of this is they give their opinion and what a judge is likely to say etc. The Mediation you have tried is a waste of time because the mediator is impartial. PM me if you want to know who i used as the middle man solicitor.

Thanks both. Wobytide is that common to meet in the middle then?

STBXH claims that my offer was so ridiculous he will need to make an equally ridiculous counter offer. Why would my solicitor make an offer that's that crazy? I just don't know who to believe.
Ex has sent me a recent court hearing that seems applicable to our situation and wants me to agree to the principles the judge set out in them.
But surely that's not legally binding if I just say "Sure, I agree." How can I agree if I don't know what I'm entitled to?

Every case is different so going on previous cases is risky. Age, Earnings, Potential Earnings, Children, Ages of Children so many parameters. Most solicitors would start with a fairly outlandish first offer and look to soften and meet in the middle somewhere. My partners first offer was ridiculous.

What was your initial offer?

My solicitor recommended joint lives combined maintenance and for me to stay in the marital home.
STBXH is a very high earner and I make a fraction of what he earns so I think spousal maintenance is reasonable but realistically only until children are 18.

Spousal maintenance is very rare these days.
My dp ex wife went for it.. Took him to court, arguing that he was very very high earner and thus "could afford it"
Judge disagreed, told her to work more hours.
But their dc were teens. So she wasn't at home with tiny children

The solicitor that acted as my mediator said that recently Spousal Maintenance has started to be awarded again, but like you said only until children are 18 and very much depends on the judge. Length of marriage comes into play too. You will certainly be expected to work if you don't already. Pension is another one where you may get a bigger % now in exchange for not touching his pension. Maybe 60/40 in your favour for a clean break.

It's not necessarily common to meet in the middle however it's fairly common for the solicitor acting on behalf of either side to start with the most outlandish offer they think might stick but with the realisation that it is an outside chance. Sometimes someone may accept it to move things on and avoid paying lots of legal fees to argue over smaller amounts.. As it moves towards court then they would normally start moving to something that they expect the judge to agree with to avoid being seen as unreasonable. Always bear in mind what you are fighting over when you are paying for that advice though. Don't spend £20k to win £10k.

Wobytide that makes sense. Ex seems to be suggesting that he now can't work from my proposal with his solicitor so he has to prepare the proposal himself (in discussion with me). I don't want to do this because:
a) he is much more financially astute than me and thus will be able to sway things in his favour,
b) I just don't feel I have the knowledge to do this and I find him intimidating/bullying. He had an affair and was borderline EA to me over the last year of our marriage so I just don't trust him, frankly. And I don't want to be around him.

I am hoping that the court thing is just a bluff on his part because surely it would be ridiculous to just take me straight to court without submitting a counter-proposal first.

We are both in agreement that there will be spousal maintenance so that's not the question. I do work part-time but I dropped down my hours to care for the children and can't go back to a full-time contract.

I don't want to go to court but I also don't think it's right that he can simply make that threat to force me to accept less than I am entitled to.

Don't assume that 'going to court' is some big conflict with wigged barristers addressing tricky arguments your way. It can mean two offers presented by solicitors and guidance from a judge on where he/she is looking to end up, and negotiations between solicitors outside of the court room

Even so, going to court goes add to stress and can generate a LOT of expense, and is best avoided if you can. But it isn't like a court you see on TV!

I can understand why he does not like your offer if it contained joint lives spousal maintenance!

His solicitor will be rightly arguing that you need to look to increase your earnings to be one financially i dependent

STBXH claims that my offer was so ridiculous he will need to make an equally ridiculous counter offer.

Is he a punisher?

If so, you likely will have to take him to court where he will be TOLD what is happening. A punisher can never constructively negotiate or settle because their sole focus is on "teaching you a lesson".

The settlement will be one where you can afford to live however both parties need to accept a lower standard of living. Sadly the lower standard of living affects women more post divorce. That is the sad reality.

What about pension? I am assuming you are proposing you take all of the house equity? I think joint lives for SM was unreasonable especially if no health needs and very unlikely that a court would agree.

Judges completely vary in their recomendations and you could get one that proposes 3 years SM only so court is a risk and will cost each of you approx £25k.

How old are you? Can you propose child maintenance until children leave Uni?
Would you be prepared to downsize when last DC leaves the nest? Do you have a pension?

I divorced a very, very high earner and Judge was keen to impose 50:50, 3 years SM. I don't think it's fair but there is definitely a trend towards very reduced SM as it is very emotive. I did do much better than Exs offer however, wasn't aware of the term punisher but that was Ex!

Perhaps look for increased CMS with a clause that neither of you could go back to CMS for an renegotiation.

Do you have a strong idea of what you need to live on? Realistically this is what a court will assess and it has to be fair. You will both have housing needs so if you have the majority of the equity your Ex will have to have a large mortgage and some equity for deposit.
It is a pretty tough time but you will get through. If Ex a bully then just keep using solicitors. Ask him for a fair counter so it can be wrapped up quickly.

Millymollymoomoo I'm sure you're correct that she will argue that I need to be independent and he's suggested it in emails to me. And I never expected to receive lifelong maintenance but I did trust in my solicitor to make an opening offer because after a year of being criticised and gaslighted by him so that I had little self-esteem left I needed someone else to stand up for me in this new adversarial position with the person I used to trust the most.

The irony is that I was in the process of applying for a promotion and taking on more work (youngest was just about to start reception), when he pulled the rug out from under me, suddenly declaring that it wasn't 'exciting' to be married anymore and he felt 'trapped'
And of course I found out later he was having an affair. I have spent a year picking up the emotional pieces of the upheaval he wreaked on me and our children. So when tells me that I 'need to be independent' I get a little put out! I spent years on maternity leave taking care of our children (the ones he pushed to have), and dropped down hours at work that I can't get back and now suddenly I need to pull my financial weight.

Of course I want to be independent but the circumstances of the marriage shifted that possibility for me and have taken a serious dent out of my career. I never intended to raise children on my own. I grew up poor and never wanted that for my children and now it looks like I am going to have to 'make do' once again. The truth is that whatever circumstances I'm living in, the children will be too. Surely he can see that.
And. Rant Over. It just all seems so unfair but I am trying to move on.

Lifebegins50 I appreciate all your practical advice. Luckily I don't think ex is a 'punisher' as was suggested. He just gets very defensive and overreacts to things because he sees them in black and white. I think he's still depressed actually. Last time we tried to speak about finances he spent half the time crying about everything he'd lost chose to walk away from-, as though everything had just happened to him.

I am proposing to take the house equity, and he can keep his pensions. Then I would need to take out a mortgage to pay off the rest of the house.

I have a pension but it's quite small and I need to increase payments on it so that I can live off it eventually. And I've gone over all my expenses so I know what I need each month (and have some idea of what I can cut back on).

I think the most difficult thing for me is separating the emotional from the practical negotiations of a divorce. But I will get through it of course, and my ex is a case in point that money doesn't buy happiness!

You’ve not stated your reasons for not being able to return to work full time and you certainly don’t need to here but you may need to think about this. Even in cases of high earners ( and I don’t know what you deem as high) there is usually an expectation of short term spousal which declines over time allowing you time to increase your own independence. Just saying be prepared for this.

I understand your emotions but reasons for duvirce or who left who won’t impact the financials so don’t waste energy on that

It’s likely you will be awarded higher share of capital and assets to compensate the lower earning . You need to understand the value of these vs the cetv of pensions in order to work out a division. And thus will depend on a myriad of factors. Your solicitor should advise you but may also present cases or outcomes which won’t materialise. Yours will be arguing for highest settlement his will be the opposite and reality will fall somewhere in between the two. As said outbreaks don’t spend lots to gain little

millymollymoomoo I understand that. Basically I dropped down to a part-time contract in order to care for the children and was told at the time that I wouldn't be able to pick up the hours again to full time.

So I would need to get another job to make up those hours.

I know the court won't care about his infidelity and lies and I need to keep those aspects separate. It's just useful to vent sometimes.

He is currently asking for a 50/50 split of assets, so we'll see.

I think I just needed some reassurance that there is an end to this process and I can let the solicitors sort it out. I'm trying to keep myself informed but it's incredibly complicated and unlike my ex, I don't purport to be an expert on the law just because I've looked at one recent case.

I appreciate everyone's insights and the chance to discuss.

We’ll I’m not a lawyer but would hazard a guess that you’ll achieve more than 50:50 !

A few things to bear in mind, whatever happens you will survive and you can rebuild. I also think it takes at least a year to recover from a divorce and thatis often from when the settlement is done and dusted. Prior to that there is so much uncertainty and fear about the future that you are in a holding pattern, not really moving forwards.

Divorcing someone with victim mentality is not easy as it is always about them. Is he living with OW now? You will get through this and I suspect no matter how fair the deal is he will always say "he was fleeced, the ex wife took all money".
I am glad you have a solicitor who you feel comfortable with and who wants to foght for you that is very important. Just ensure there is balance and its realistic.

A few things to bear in mind, whatever happens you will survive and you can rebuild. I also think it takes at least a year to recover from a divorce and thatis often from when the settlement is done and dusted. Prior to that there is so much uncertainty and fear about the future that you are in a holding pattern, not really moving forwards.

Divorcing someone with victim mentality is not easy as it is always about them. Is he living with OW now? You will get through this and I suspect no matter how fair the deal is he will always say "he was fleeced, the ex wife took all money".
I am glad you have a solicitor who you feel comfortable with and who wants to foght for you that is very important. Just ensure there is balance and its realistic.

One important thing I wish I had been told before the very expensive affair my divorce was:

• the judge... won’t judge. Really, you need to get to an agreement via shuttle mediation at court, mediation outside court (not suitable with controlling people). You go to court twice to try to get to an agreement, on the third one there is no negotiation and the judge takes the decision by themselves. You may end up being advantaged or disadvantaged by the perception of the judge, who may have had enough time or not to get familiar with the case. One thing that you can be sure is that NO ONE is going to be looking at the evidence with a magnifying class. It is not like a criminal court.

2. you don’t need to convince the other party’s solicitor that their client is unreasonable, you pay for the solicitor to believe what you say even if they don’t and fight your corner.

3. starting with outlandish offers is stupid. Yes, your solicitor is already taking advantage of you and wasting your money, by suggesting you start with a ridiculous offer he has wiped off any goodwill left between you and your ex leading you into a high conflict case that will cost you or you both a lot of money, at best, you have just wasted £££££ just to antagonise the other party as you knew there was no way your ex will consider it a reasonable proposition. A Collaborative solicitor would have made their best not to create that situation, that’s why they are good.

4. it is pointless to negotiate a more favourable child maintenance in court, as a single year after the order, either parent can apply to the CMS to bring the formerly agreed amount in line with the minimum CM as calculated by CMS.

5. Mesher orders are two edged swords, if you are a middle aged parent with young children as yes, you get to live in the house until they leave compulsory education but by the time they grow up and you have to sell the house it could be virtually impossible to get a reasonable mortgage when you are just a few years away from retirement.

6. Clean breaks are a fantastic thing to have when you have an abusive controlling Downside of spousal maintenance orders is that most of them will come to an end after 6 years of cohabitation, so if your ex is like mine... prepare for a few years of randomly finding your ex parked outside your house in the early morning, waiting for that non existent cohabitee to leave the house.

I could continue for ages but in a nutshell, keep it sweet and short, otherwise it could cost you more in solicitor fees than you can potentially get.

...an abusive controlling exhusband. Downside of...

Sorry I haven't been back to thank everyone for the long and thoughtful replies. I have read them, it's just a lot to process. They're immensely helpful and I suppose a bit of a reality check as well. Which isn't a bad thing.
Lifebegins50 those are wise words. I keep counting my recovery time from when he actually left, but of course the divorce itself is a whole trial and as you say it's the uncertainty. I guess he does have a victim mentality, I never thought about it that way because he did such a good job of convincing me to feel sorry for him. He isn't living with the OW and thankfully they've split up.
To his credit, he loves our children and has really stepped up as a parent since he left. So hopefully that will mean he will support them (and their mother) financially. I am absolutely working towards financial independence but no matter how much I work I can only ever earn a fraction of what he makes.

Tanmateix I suppose that's what worries me about court. The judge will just make a snap judgment and it might be unappealing to both of us.

I actually think my best bet right now is to try and get a financial settlement outside of the courts.

I had considered a mesher order but as you say, it's messy and just seems to delay the inevitable.

I also would like to move on to another relationship at some point and that does seem to be a problem with spousal maintenance.

Anyways, lots to think about and thanks again for your advice.
I've contacted my solicitor again to ask how to respond to ex and just so I have a better sense of our 'strategy.'

that does seem to be a problem with spousal maintenance

You can agree Global payments which doesn't relate to co habitation - that clause is tending to be mostly ignored by Judges now. Also if CSM goes down SM goes up so the amount stays the same.
@Tanmateix excellent insight. The outside perception is that a Judge will look in detail but reality is they come to cases with prejudices and bias. In local court it's known one Judge is just very unreasonable with everyone, grumpy with all barristers and gets angry easily. Another is strongly against SM for any more than 3 years, irrespective of circumstances and another has a more traditional view to mothers being supported. Complete luck on who you get. It costs a fortune for clients to pay solicitors to prepare volumes of paperwork yet the indicators at FDR are just boilerplate based on Judges preferences.
I wish I knew how much info is ignored in favour of top line.

PS just noticed that I wrote that SM will come to an end, in most cases, after 6 years of cohabitation. It is actually 6 months so even having a boyfriend around in the early stages of the new relationship can get you in trouble with the ex and reduce your income.

There is also the issue of moving on, it is difficult to move a new relationship forward when your income from SM can easily disappear if you act like a normal couple. Obviously, there are some assumptions that if there is a new man the ex shouldn’t be supporting YOU but at the end of the day, with such small amounts given for CM, SM is used to support the kids and the new man is not expected to make up for it if you lose it (some do, some don’t but it is never an obligation to finance your new partner’s children)