Child custody - does this sound right?

[Hertsessex]

We are trying to help a friend of ours who has split from her husband and lost custody of her son. We are doing our best to help from afar but something doesn't sound right with this situation.

Husband is English and she is from overseas (her English is ok but not great which hasn't helped her). Husband is extremely manipulative and very clever at playing the system. Just prior to the split he report her to the police for violence against the child and she was detained. There was no evidence and she vehemently denies this to us. The police did not proceed but of course they split and he did everything he could then to stop her seeing son, told school and all school friends, basically trashed her reputation. Most likely he was also saying awful things about her to son. Oh yes he kicked her out of the house and became threatening even if she went back to get things. I think went on like this for about a year with her seeing him on and off when Dad would allow and hardly every overnight.

Eventually went to court and granted custody to husband about one year ago. Apparently one of the big factors was interviewing son (who was around 11 or 12 at the time) who said he wanted to stay with Dad. Of course she was granted right to see him on a regular basis but not sure of the exact terms.

At first she saw him at weekends including staying overnight. Then Dad started making excuses about agreed time so some planned meets slipped and then he said son didn't want to see her anymore. She never heard this directly from son and he wouldn't let him speak to her. She tried various things - sending letters, getting friend to pass on presents etc but no reply. After months of this she went back to court and apparently they said if son doesn't want to see her then she has no right to see him and it has now been a year since any contact. She is desperate but says nothing she can do.

Does that make sense? Would court really say that? I wonder if she didn't understand or perhaps she is hiding something from us? We want to help her but really confused.

Oh yes he has now sent her divorce papers and is asking for child maintenance just to rub salt in the wounds after making her life hell and putting up every possible obstacle to her seeing their son. Neither of them are well-off but he kicked her out with literally nothing and she is now working in a low paid job just trying to get by.

I could see my ex doing this if he could.

Look, assuming it's as she says, I would advise her to seek a second legal opinion, then if it's not looking good, just get some counselling, dig in, and wait.

Once the child gets a bit older and starts expressing their own opinions, they may come to know the father's true face and want to talk to their mother again.

She should stay very searchable on Facebook...this will help her son to find her and eventually get back in touch.

It is unusual for a primary career not to be the resident parent. But that presupposes the wife was the primary career which is not always the case. You haven’t described the parenting arrangements prior to the separation but this might be a clue. Sometimes the father provides this role or is viewed to be better placed to provide it, in terms of offering stability and security for the child.

I know of a family were the father is the resident parent and contact with the mother is limited both by the courts and choice of the children. At 12, the opinion of the child would be taken into account. In this case the mothers poor parenting was long documented by schools and social workers. She didn’t hit them but her behaviour was detrimental to their well being and development and included abandonment. She does not accept it or realise what she did to them. She has a distorted view of reality and will tell a very different story which gains her sympathy until the real facts are presented by independent witnesses.

The father took action on the advice of social workers. He wasn’t prompted by vindictiveness at all. He doesn’t limit contact but the children do not want to be with her. They still love her but can not tolerate her behaviour.

As a pp said if there is basis to the fathers claim then she could fight it. But it is very likely that his claims had some independent validation.

Thanks for the replies. Prior to split she was the typical stay at home mum with a small part-time job a few hours a week. He worked full time although self-employed and struggling financially and drinking too much. They had debt collectors around etc and often argued. She thinks he knew they might split and was worried she would get custody so preempted it by making up stories about her. Unlike the example you give there was no prior problems, involvement of social workers etc.

Since the split on some occasions mother and son had come to our house and he seemed very happy being with her.

I still don’t get how the court could give her right of access at first and then when husband basically blocks later basically agree with him. Maybe there is more that she isn’t telling us or maybe if she tried again she might have some success.

Unfortunately she is tired and depressed and doesn’t have the energy to fight in English again and doesn’t have money for legal support.

Very difficult situation and sad because on the surface English fluency aside it seems like she is by far the better parent.

Hmm. The son was at an age where he can independently describe what happened. If there was no violence from his mum, he could have said so. Given that it went to court, there will have been involvement from Cafcass who would have spoken to the son. Evidence would have been gathered from both parents, the child, and other professionals involved with the family. After all that, the court decided the child's interests were best served by being with the dad (an unusual situation).

If that violence did occur, it is perhaps not surprising that the child doesn't want to see her. Had this been a case of a father being violent to a child, would you accuse the mother of being manipulative for taking action on that, and involving the school. That isn't trashing her reputation - it's safeguarding the child. It's what responsible parents do.

This woman has told you she didn't do it. Yep - lots of abusers say they didn't do it, especially if they have mental health issues that prevent them from seeing the damage they cause. All the professionals involved in the case decided that his best interests were met by being with the dad. And that he knew what he was doing when he said he didn't want to see his mum.

I'm guessing your views here are driven by gender prejudice. You've decided that "she is by far the better parent" despite every professional with access to, you know, actual evidence and stuff, concluding the opposite. Maybe time to revisit those gender prejudices?

Hmm this happened to myself and my sister as children.
My mother and father split, I was the biggest daddy's girl. My father threw my mother out and we stayed with our father (I was 13 my sister being 9)
I remember us both being interviewed on numerous occasions before court (my father was very manipulative with myself and told me lots of lies about my mother..how horrible she was, she ruined our lives, she never loved us etc) I believed everything.
As of my age I was not forced by the court to have to see my mother. I told them I didn't want to. My sister in interviews said that she just wanted to be wherever I lived. So my father had full custody of us.
The court did rule my sister at her age did have to go to my mothers every third weekend.
My mother fought extremely hard and spent every single penny she had fighting for us, to not succeed.
I only found out as an adult that my mothers only way of checking I was ok, was that she went to my school and explained the situation to a teacher. The teacher would keep an eye on me and make sure I was still doing week at school and report back to my mother.

All I can say is now as adults, we both have realised the truth of the situation and have no relationship with our father at all. He only wanted us not out of love, but to hurt our mother.
It's all very sad and difficult. I can't imagine how she must feel. But this child will one day realise the truth.
She needs to not give up and carry on fighting. Her child will realise the truth one day. I feel for her terribly 😔

No not gender prejudices. I just happen to know both of them and know others that knew them too so in addition to a few paragraphs on here I have lot so information. I agree perhaps not everything but then again I don't think the court has everything either (especially given the language issue.) By the I am not mum who things that mums always know best. I am a dad.

At the time of initial custody discussions I believe the son did say there had been no violence but something along the lines he could live with either but would prefer being with Dad - staying in same home he had grown-up in, near friends etc. Just because son had this opinion and court agreed that this was in his interests doesn't mean husbands accusations of violence were true.

As for him being manipulative and trashing her reputation. We he was definitely very manipulative for many years and they way he handled this was underhand. I can't say more on a public forum unfortunately without potentially outing the case.

At first after the son did want to see and they met regularly as agreed. She accepted the dad has custody and was relatively ok with this arrangement.

Then the dad starting putting up roadblocks and making life difficult and then he said son didn't want to see her. She never heard this directly from him and I am not sure if he ever then said to court after. This is the bit that is strange to me. She was granted regular access to start with and then with nothing seemingly going wrong, dad blocks it and she can't do anything. She hasn't even been able to speak to son for 5 minutes in a year.

That said yes maybe she did do something, maybe she is not being honest, maybe the court knows a lot more than I do. Definitely possible.

Also though the situation of having to all this in second language brings means perhaps I know more than they do on some points (I speak her native language) There is no language support for these cases. She paid for a high level interpreter for some of it but not possible to do for everything. I dread to think of going through something similar overseas in my second language against a native speaker.

Funinthesun - thank you for sharing your experience. Sorry you had to go through that - I will try to share your story with my friend.

If she wants you to know the whole truth of what happened not just her version she has the reports and transcripts. She can share these with you. She doesn’t have to if it is not your business but if she wanted you to know the objective version of what happened she could do that. Not just her version or her statements but those from all the people who would be involved. That is not just the father.

So sorry to read about this OP. This is exactly the route my STBXH is trying to go.
I have a 9yr old almost 10. DC has witnessed STBXH's abuse of me on so many...several occasions. We have had police attendance a few times over the years. I have been primary carer all DCs lives. STBXH used to be away about half the year, travelling for work and away from home 5 to 7days out of 7 while not away.
Since the separation, STBXH convinced my 9 yrs old...and 3 yr old that Mummy is bad. They should not trust me and they are better off living with him.
One would think that on interviewing DC that they would be able to say the truth but that was not the case. The 9yr old is too afraid to say anything different to what Dad has said. DC actually believed him!
So it is not so simple or easy to say one would expect that on being interviewed the son in OP's case would necessarily be able to say the truth.
I am also privileged through my work to see where children of all ages say something totally different to what they want or believe because of the influence of one parent or the other.
It constantly amazes me the power parents can wield over their children.
I really wish everything works out for the lady and son in your case, OP. If she has been denied her son wrongfully, I hope it is a situation of he who laughs last. The Husband can not control the son for the rest of his life (hopefully).

Sorry to hear of your situation itsatoughone and hope it works out for you. It is so sad to hear of parents behaving like this. I have never separated but like to think if I ever did we would both be sensible about ti. Yes hopefully in a few years time there is a happy ending of sorts as he gets older. I just hope the the mum perseveres as somebody above suggested. At times I think it is so painful for her she just wants to block it all out, almost give up and return to her home country. .