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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Can't agree contact arrangements for summer - advice?

12 replies

YouWhoNeverArrived · 13/05/2019 10:12

Would be grateful for a sense check and some advice as to how to proceed. DH has two children, aged 12 and 8, from his first marriage. The divorce was very acrimonious and ended up in court for both finances and child arrangements. Three years later, sadly, the relationship between DH and his ex hasn't improved at all - if anything, it's got worse. They only communicate via text or email because they often argue if they meet face-to-face or talk on the phone. She takes weeks to reply to emails and often doesn't reply at all, even to acknowledge receipt. After she ignored one time-sensitive message he sent her (about one of the children receiving medical treatment), he tried sending her a message via WhatsApp, and she responded by blocking him on WhatsApp and sending him an email saying she will only speak to him via text or email, nothing else. Term-time contact involves dropping off and picking up from school, and holiday handovers involve the children walking out of the house and into the car without the other parent, so we manage to avoid conflict in front of the children.

So, things are very difficult.

During term-time, DH has the children for 5 nights a fortnight (so, an average of 2.5 nights a week). The Child Arrangements Order says that holidays are to be divided equally between the parties, and contains stipulations about alternate Christmases and Easter Sundays. However, all it says about the summer holidays is that they are to be divided equally, with the dates to be agreed by the parties at least 4 weeks in advance.

We have been trying for months to agree contact for the summer holidays, and DH's ex keeps rejecting our proposals. In previous years, by mutual agreement, each parent has had a 2-week stint each, then a 1-week stint. This year, we would like to have the children for 15 nights (rather than 14) in the first block, with one night less in the second block, to facilitate taking them on a family holiday with the extended family (aunt/uncle/cousin and paternal grandparents, plus me/DH/our child, who is the children's half-brother). The holiday would be in the UK. Due to the logistics, and the timing of our annual leave, it will be difficult to make it work unless we have 15 nights (rather than 14). DH's ex has refused because she says the children don't like being away from her for more than 2 weeks at a time. The children have had a 14-day stint with us before, including a similar family holiday, and enjoyed it. On a practical level, I can't see how 15 nights is any different from 14, and our sense is that she is being obstructive for the sake of it to try and ruin our holiday. If she refuses to agree to us having the children for a 15-night stretch to allow a family holiday, should we go back to court? If so, should we seek a Specific Issue Order about the holiday, or would it be better to request a new Child Arrangements Order which is more prescriptive about holiday contact to avoid future arguments? I realise that we could just back down and not go on the holiday, but it feels like going on a family holiday would be in the children's best interests, and if we back down this year it will set a precedent that she can muck up our holiday plans by refusing to allow reasonable contact proposals.

Would be grateful for others' thoughts - thanks. And before anyone points out that, as the stepmum, I should keep out of it - DH specifically asked me to post about this on Mumsnet because he can't find any equivalent dads' groups!

OP posts:
NorthernSpirit · 13/05/2019 11:02

I’m in the same position as you. A SM with a partner with kids who had an acrimonious divorce. For years she’s used the children as weapons and as a punishment. They only communicate via email (court ordered at the request of my OH as EW unable to communicate in a decent manner. Judge ordered that she should respond within 4 days, but she rarely does).

Your request doesn’t sound unreasonable.

Unfortunately I have realised after 5 years of my OH trying to deal with his EW in a respectful manner that you can’t ask an unreasonable person for a reasonable request.

The mother doesn’t own the children, nor does she get to dictate. If they can’t agree - take it back to court and let a judge decide.

After years of pain (and heartbreak) my OZh did this and the mother was told tgT she didn’t own the children and if she continued to block reasonable requests for contact then residency would be changed to the father. I sometimes wonder how she wound feel if the show was on the other foot (but I have come to realise that you can’t deal with crazy).

NorthernSpirit · 13/05/2019 11:03

I would go to court and ask for the contact order to be restated including holiday details.

Seapoint2002 · 13/05/2019 11:11

Sounds like they are being difficult for the sake of it, knowing its causing stress and might affect your holiday.
If things are difficult anyway you could just do the 15 days and tell them to take you to court if they don't like it. The court would laugh at the very reasonable request you have made.

YouWhoNeverArrived · 13/05/2019 11:57

Thank you both for your thoughts. It's helpful to hear that we're not the unreasonable ones. DH's ex tends to cry before the children leave for holiday contact, so the younger child often comes out in tears herself because she knows that Mummy is upset. The children know that Mummy misses them while they are away from her. So I imagine they might say they only want to be away from her for 14 nights, but that would be because they are influenced by her.

The problem with your suggestion, @seapoint2002, is that we'd be in breach of the court order. We need to proactively initiate court proceedings before the holiday if we don't agree with the contact pattern she is offering.

We are a bit nervous that, if we go back to court, she will try to reduce our overall contact with the children. Although the 12-year-old is of an age where their wishes would be taken into account by Cafcass, the children are aware that their mother is not happy with the amount of contact we have currently, and we worry they'll be influenced by her in what they tell Cafcass. Essentially there has been a fair bit of low-level parental alienation over the past 3 years, in terms of the mother undermining the children's relationship with DH, but it's all fairly low-level so we're not sure how much a court would take notice of it.

OP posts:
Ariela · 13/05/2019 12:17

A friend of mine's OH plays his exwife, as she always tries the spanner in the works and says:
Actually change of plan don't need (least inconvenient day of the 15 days) after all, as we're going away for a short break by ourselves straight after/immediately before, and we need to be at the airport by x time so we'll drop kids at y time/cannot pick them up till z time as a consequence.

THEN watch the situation change 'Oh but you'll have to have the 15th day you wanted, you must have them that day as I've already arranged abc because you said you needed 15 days, and I can't be there for the 15th day now'

reefedsail · 13/05/2019 12:31

For the sake of the peace can you not just come home on the 14th day instead of the 15th?

Just as the extra day wouldn't make much difference to the mum, it equally won't make much difference to your holiday.

NorthernSpirit · 13/05/2019 12:35

It is extremely rare for a court to reduce contact. The courts are very pro contact. The mother would have to provide a very convincing argument as to why the holiday shouldn’t happen and contact be reduced.

My OH’s manipulating EW (who also cry’s in front of the children and tells them how she misses them) ‘approved’ a holiday (in writing), it was booked & paid for 4 months in advance and then at 11pm the night before she emailed to say the children wouldn’t be going as she would miss them too much (it was a 7 day holiday with the children’s grandparents).

My OH took her to court for breaching the agreement and contact order. She was investigated by SS and the judge told her that if she repeated this behaviour he would change residency.

I would go to court. You can not deal with these women.

My OH’s EW is an expert manipulator - recently told the 13 year old not to text or call dad as it upsets mummy. That’s what my OH is dealing with. Court is the only way to reduce their control.

YouWhoNeverArrived · 13/05/2019 12:37

It's a bit more complicated than that - ex's proposal involves us having the children for slightly different dates, which don't match up with our annual leave, so a) they'd have to be in holiday club for the first 2 or 3 days of their 2-week stint with us and b) we'd return them halfway into our second week of annual leave. So we'd only get about 9 or 10 nights on the family holiday.

OP posts:
Dropthedeaddonkey · 13/05/2019 13:40

I would give her notice you intend to apply to court in 7 days and as she is being unreasonable in not consenting you will be asking the judge to order she pay your legal costs as well as her own. You can then ask whether she’s willing to reconsider and give her the 7 days to reply.

YouWhoNeverArrived · 14/05/2019 16:57

Thanks, all, for the advice. Having looked at our annual leave dates and our holiday plans, we have found a potential compromise and are going to make a further proposal by email. If DH's ex refuses to agree to our (eminently reasonable) counter-proposal, we will take legal advice with a view to going to court. Hopefully we can claim costs from her, as per your suggestion, @dropthedeaddonkey.

DH doesn't think there's much point arranging mediation, as his ex is very intransigent and doesn't tend to negotiate or compromise. They tried mediation before their last court case and it was a total waste of time and money because his ex made unreasonable demands and refused to cede any ground at all. So, if we can't agree dates with his ex, I imagine we'll just get a MIAM and take her straight to court.

So depressing that, three years down the line, things are still so acrimonious. I realise that, as the new wife, it probably sounds like I'm interfering, but honestly I try so hard to help DH find common ground with his ex, and all we get in return is hostility.

OP posts:
NorthernSpirit · 14/05/2019 23:36

Good look OP.

My OH is 7 years down the line and it’s okly got slightly better since a judge threatened a change of residency. She also can’t compromise, everything has to be done her way regarding ‘her’ children.

Hope it works out.

YouWhoNeverArrived · 16/05/2019 13:10

Thanks, @northernspirit. It sounds like we're in very similar situations, sadly! Court is the only thing which seems to motivate DH's ex to cede any ground at all! Feel free to PM if you ever want to chat to someone who is going through the same crap you are!

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