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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Worst decision a woman could make

630 replies

Notbeingrobbed · 18/09/2018 11:16

As a working mother with two children to support, my divorce has made me see that getting married was the worst financial decision I ever made.

I have been the higher earner so will lose a big chunk of the money that I have made throughout my life. I also have the kids to support (happy to).

My ex will get a big payout having benefitted from my income as well as his own for years.

Why would any modern woman marry? Oh, because we are all influenced by society (and hormones) to think it’s a good thing.

People say I am arguing like a man. But the law was surely designed to protect a stay-at-home mother with children from a husband who leaves. Not to protect a layabout-at-home father?

OP posts:
Johnnyfinland · 28/09/2018 15:42

@notbeingrobbed you’ve hit the nail on the head that it should be the same for either gender. And whatever’s awarded in a divorce under current laws should be for the children, not the upkeep of an adult capable of supporting themselves.

But there’s a prevalent attitude on here of ‘what’s his is mine, but what’s mine is mine alone’ - I’ve seen it where SAHPS (and it is largely women) expect unfettered access to their husband’s money but are advised to ‘squirrel away’ funds - his money - for themselves in case he turns mean or anything goes wrong. I just don’t understand the double standards of expecting men to be a bottomless bank and yet, many of those women would also probably agree you’ve been hard done by

DoubleNegativePanda · 28/09/2018 15:46

I personally agree with you. I would never, ever put a partnership on paper again.

zsazsajuju · 28/09/2018 20:31

@ bumpity- not sure why you would think my comments that green beret is a cautionary tale is a nasty attack on you! She is a cautionary tale to all women who are happy to depend on others. 50% of marriages end in divorce. Hers did and she has been telling us how she is unhappy with the financial settlement. So it hasn’t worked out for her.

She said all that stuff about men and women not being equal and single parents being a bad example in writing on the thread. It’s pretty off I’m afraid.

And I don’t get why you think I was fleeced by my ex. I wasn’t BECAUSE I DIDNT MARRY HIM. What’s mine is still mine my dear.

zsazsajuju · 28/09/2018 20:51

@greenberet you did say all that stuff. All the ranting about how men and women will never be equal and how I must only care about “£” because I have a job. About how single parents are not normal and a bad example to children. You don’t get to say all that stuff then accuse others of being bullies.

Those were your values- that you could be a sahp if you liked and this made his earnings yours. This didn’t work out for you and it’s important to note that for other women (and for you- time to drop those outdated ideas about women being unable to provide for themselves).

zsazsajuju · 28/09/2018 21:08

@bumpity - it’s worth noting that green beret also claims her dh agreed that she was to be a sahp. He has changed his tune now. You really think that it’s biologically determined that women should be sahm - Does your dh think that too? Up to what age do you think children need “a loving parent” who doesn’t work?

Did you earn more than your ex before you gave up work? What sector did you work in? Did you enjoy your job?

I think individual cases are interesting. But at a societal level I think this culture of women doing all the unpaid work is very damaging And I think the law should not reward it.

Notbeingrobbed · 28/09/2018 21:28

@zsazsajuju these court awards certainly shore up the gender pay gap by making out parenting is women’s work - indeed just as financially valid as earning real money that can be used to provide a home, food, clothes, activities etc for children. It’s nonsense in 2018.

My issue isn’t with SAHPs though, but with partners who have earned their own income but a lower income and have not saved or been responsible yet expert half of the other party’s assets.

I do think it’s mad for a woman to give up her income to rely on anyone else. You need to be sure you can pay your own way.

OP posts:
user1492863869 · 29/09/2018 09:46

At the end of the day the courts are making the best job of outdated law. This applies whether we are talking about divorce or separation. The law should do 2 things; ensure that children have stability and security and ensure that adults are not left destitute or homeless as a result of a relationship breakdown. As far as that is possible and there will always be situations that’s the law can’t account for. Adults also need to be more responsible in their life decisions and how they plan for risk. Collectively in a relationship and individually.

It seems to me that the law has failed to keep up with changing work practices, life choices and economics. For decades the numbers of people getting married has been on a downward trend. The numbers of people cohabiting has increased. That means more and more children are brought up in cohabitation households. We know that these relationships are significantly more likely to breakdown. So we have a situation we’re people are deterred from marriage and entering into a less stable relationship for their children.

Reformers are aware of this and are increasingly calling for changes to marriage and divorce law to encourage people to enter into more stable relationships. At the same time, they are calling for cohabitation rights to be improved. They don’t need to be the same but they should be fit for purpose. To constantly prompt the status quo just because it suits an increasing middle class minority , is letting down a lot of children.

The OPs experience and that some of the other posters are prime examples of why people find marriage attractive. Rightly or wrongly they see a risk of a disproportionate and unnecessary cost associated with leaving the relationship. This is not prompted by financial abuse nor is it prompted by a disregard of their parental responsibilities. Clearly any law needs to deal with this behaviour but not assume it.

Regulated and reasonable prenuptial agreements would deal with this, making martial vows more realistic and relevant. They get a bad press in tv and film and are widely misunderstood. They are agreements that set out an understanding between both parties of how assets and responsibilities will be shared. Indeed they may well highlight potential issues of financial abuse before it can happen. They will reference divorce and separation settlements. However surely it is better to know up front what the shared cost of having and raising a child will be in this event.

I think much of the dissatisfaction expressed by posters on this thread would have been avoided if they had formailed their financial and relationship responsibilities at the start and if the law didn’t interfere with their agreed settlements as unfairly as it did or was able to.

In the case of a woman and man who agree that one shall be a SAHP for decades, a prenup would be a very clear and binding agreement about the financial consequences should they split. Realistically many husbands might be more reluctant to agree to the arrangement but better to find it out at 30 with no kids than at 40 with 4.

The same would apply were one person wants to protect assets and wealth accrued before or after the marriage or relationship.

I get so frustrated by posters who respond to these issues with the standard, well you know or should know what marriage/cohabitation means before you move in/have kids. This is a cop out. The 2 alternatives just are not fit for purpose in a lot of / most cases. That is why people are not marrying. That is why cohabiting families are splitting up in bad circumstances and children suffer.

The smugness does offend but I also know that these women or men are sitting on their own timebomb. Death, debt and divorce are real risks to individuals and children. As a lot of women find out, there simply isn’t enough money to fund two households and two pensions if only one person works. That isn’t going to get better in the future.

user1492863869 · 29/09/2018 10:13

why people find marriage unattractive

zsazsajuju · 29/09/2018 10:14

@notbeingrobbed - totally agree re giving a chunk of your assets to lower earning spouse. He has already done well out of the marriage by having a higher standard of living, why should he get money he hasn’t earned just because he was married to you?

Notbeingrobbed · 29/09/2018 10:24

If cohabiting people get the same rights then humanity is doomed. Can’t get married, can’t live together - just stay single for ever!

OP posts:
Notbeingrobbed · 29/09/2018 10:33

@zsazsajuju I suppose the courts would say that you can’t prove who earned what and when. Of course that is nonsense as HMRC holds everyone’s tax records and could releases these for this very purpose. It’s all taxed income!

OP posts:
user1492863869 · 29/09/2018 12:28

Notbeing
I didn’t advocate for the same rights for cohabitees nor do I expect the rights to be in anyway similar to those conferred on married couples today. I want reform and that needs to be widespread to address the complexities. I acknowledge and support your grievance at the settlement imposed on you. However the issues are far wider than you and your circumstances.

Cohabitation rights tend to be limited to wealth accrued within the relationship. Wealth and assets accrued outside the relationship don’t get shared. They are important because they will prompt greater stability for children and reduce the financial vulnerability of adults leaving the relationship. This can result in homelessness and real poverty. If marriage is a step to far financially there needs to be an alternative and I believe more than one alternative.

People won’t support reform based on the financial discomfort felt by a handful of high earners alone. To be honest you have lost some of my sympathy.

Notbeingrobbed · 29/09/2018 16:26

I don’t want sympathy. I want justice. If people don’t get married that’s a choice and the marital arrangement should not be forced on them. I SO wish I had not married.

OP posts:
MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday · 29/09/2018 16:36

I have to say i find those posts interesting. Because basically that’s what men have been saying like for ever. And they’ve always been told they were wrong to think like this. That their partner/dw had brought things to the marriage, even if it wasn’t monetary and this couldn’t be forgotten.

I got married. I will get divorced.
What marriage has given me (but it could have been H) is protection. Protection when I got unexpectedly ill and couldnt work.
It gave me support when I needed to work ‘odd hours’ because let’s be honest it’s not possible for ANY parent to work long or odds hours wo support. Childcare isn’t set up for that.
It gave H support when he wanted/needed to work odd hours or travel for work.
And that’s exactly what it should be. A partnership. Practically, financially and emotionally.
There are lots of advantages for that. But I think that maybe it’s people who have hit REALLY rough times that are able to see that.

MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday · 29/09/2018 16:40

Btw if you are married, there is no ‘my partner didn’t save any money’. Finances are shared even if you dint really want to and decide to split them. By law they are shared. Which means that it doesn’t matter if it’s you or your partner who saves. It’s still the property if both if you.

Fwiw I am the one saving even though I have, by far the lowest wage.
That’s because H is paying the most between us (mortgage etc...).
Ans i know very well that when we split, these savings will be split between us. As they should be.

Xenia · 29/09/2018 19:17

MyB, unless he disappears as a lot do with liquid assets -that bar in Thailand, that giving up full time work to run the vineyard in France (i.e. rendering yourself with no money), that clearing out the bank accounts and running away.

The proposed marriage reforms that probably will go ahead will not affect all this - they just will say that the ability to divorce is a bit easier but with a 6 month delay. I don't tihnk they will change financial arrangements nor will they give those who are unmarried more rights and I suspect the status quo may be safer than new rules it will take years to agree over as people have such different opinions.

I certainly won't marry again. I thought I might at one point but just don't want to now.

As well as dealing with the financial issues of where a couple where both work full time, neither supports the career of the other and neither sacrifices a career for the other, then divorce and the unfairness that the higher earner has to pay spousal support. We should also address by law reform issues like one person not fairly sharing the children and also where one refuses to help with or see the children and the financial issue where both work full time of who pays the very very expensive full time childcare costs - 50/50 would be a good start.

Notbeingrobbed · 29/09/2018 19:27

@MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday the argument about protection is entirely bogus. There is no protection for me or my children from a man who even wants to strip my children’s saving accounts.

I am not one of the super-rich, just a woman doing my best to support my family.

OP posts:
Bumpitybumper · 29/09/2018 19:50

@zsazsajuju
it’s worth noting that green beret also claims her dh agreed that she was to be a sahp. He has changed his tune now.
Hmm err ok noted...

You really think that it’s biologically determined that women should be sahm
No I don't and I never wrote that. I believe that there are biological reasons why there are currently and probably will always be more SAHMs than SAHDs. I also think this is why there are more single mothers than single fathers and why women will generally be the RP. Many fathers can walk away from their children, it's very rare a mother will do this. Women tend to be more strongly bonded to their children and take a more child orientated approach. I don't see this as a weakness or a product of socialisation, but as a strength that should be celebrated and promoted.

I know that went slightly off topic but just wanted to provide some context around my views about why I think more women will opt to be SAHPs than men. This doesn't mean I think all women should be SAHPs or that if a family chooses to have a SAHP it should be the woman, I just think it explains why often the woman is the most keen to take on the role.

Does your dh think that too?
That the majority of SAHPs are women because of biological reasons? I think so...

Up to what age do you think children need “a loving parent” who doesn’t work?
My view (and it is an opinion) is that it's optimal to have a FT SAHP at least until a child is 3. After this age I think the benefits of group child care settings kick in and therefore the requirement for a FT SAHP decreases.

Did you earn more than your ex before you gave up work?
I presume you mean my DH, we earned similar amounts.

What sector did you work in? Did you enjoy your job?
Worked private sector and I didn't love my career but didn't hate it either. My DH feels the same about his career. Not sure why it's relevant?

I think individual cases are interesting. But at a societal level I think this culture of women doing all the unpaid work is very damaging And I think the law should not reward it.
I agree with the sentiment behind what you're saying, but there are many ways to crack a nut and I disagree with the premise of your argument. If the law steps in to provide some financial worth to unpaid work then by definition it raises the perceived value of the work and therefore the status of the people doing it.

Your suggestion regarding a change to the law would ostensibly force parents to use external childcare or leave one parent facing absolute financial ruin if the relationship was to break down. I absolutely would oppose such a proposal and would hope such a restrictive policy would never get implemented.

sunsandandwaterslides · 29/09/2018 20:10

It has been mentioned earlier in the thread. It isn't about not getting married, it is about marrying the right sort of man. For example my father wouldn't work for anyone else, he always insisted on being self employed in some way but he was definitely not a business man and lost money. My mum trained later in life as a teacher and has been basically keeping them afloat for 20 + years. When I saw this growing up, I swore I would never marry a man like that. When I met my future husband i knew i had a good man. He had always worked and was ambitious, he was sensible with money but still generous and he always did his fair share of housework. When we met he earned slightly more than me, now I earn about 7k a year more than him and it looks likely that my earnings will increase and his will More or less stay the same but if in the event that we divorced in 15 years time and my salary had increased massively and his hadn't, I wouldn't see it as my hard earned cash. It would be family money and be split accordingly. The problem is these men who are going to walk away with a large chunk of the family assets and not have the kids are lazy cocklodgers and that is what you chose to marry. Also, if I did divorce ever, I know we would do 50:50 with the kids cos frankly he is more natural than I am with the kids. So really what we should be saying is don't rush into marriage and make sure he is a good person with a similar earning potential and work ethic.

sunsandandwaterslides · 29/09/2018 20:12

And I would always advice my children to not give up work as well. It is important to me to not be financially dependent on anyone.

MyBrexitGoesOnHoliday · 29/09/2018 20:14

Not So your issue isnt with marriage but with the fact you were married to a twat of the first order. Same if one partner just buggers off to Thailand tbh.

I agree about the situation with getting divorce and why in earth is one parent paying for the cost of all the childcare when bith parents work full time for example. Etc...
I don’t agree that one partner doesn’t support the other when young children are involved. It’s just not physically possible. Not if both partners are at a level/work in a job where some flexibility is needed (and it doesn’t equate earning a lot at all).
Because for both parents of young dcs to be able to have that flexibility, more or often one of them needs to give up something. Wether it’s a promotion, the job that they wouod have liked to do etc....

Flower64 · 29/09/2018 20:20

I’ve been really interested in this thread. There are a range of experiences here and it’s very clear some kind of reform is needed. The law does seem to be based on how families were set up 40 years ago. I don’t think anyone should be disadvantaged for being a SAHM parent but I also don’t think anyone should expect a meal ticket for life - and there are a hundred variations in between on that.
In my own situation I don’t personally see why I should continue to work full time, have the children 100% of the time (my ex is a risk to them and isn’t allowed contact), pay for all of the childcare and then if there is anything left he’d like 50% of it despite earning over £30k himself purely because it’s available - yes because I earn it?!?
Thankfully my solicitor is telling me he’s unlikely to be successful. This man apparently married me with the long term plan of ripping me off and I’ve been taken in by his charming act. He isn’t even paying child maintenance they’re having to make an application for an attachment of earnings. I’ll now be raising children alone into my 50’s. Probably single cos let’s face it who sets out to meet an almost 40 year old lady with 4 kids! 😂 @notbeingrobbed you have my sympathy in this situation. I’m just thankful our house doesn’t have much equity or it’s likely I’d be either selling up to pay him off or remortgaging to to the same.

Neweternal · 29/09/2018 20:39

Does anyone think any men marry with financial security in mind? I think many do, men tend to think logically, more do than women.

FinallyGotAnIPhone · 29/09/2018 20:39

This is a very good thread. I completely agree with you OP. I have two kids with my exP and we were engaged but thank the Lord we didn’t marry as I earn more than him/ have more assets etc. I’m now with a new P (and earn more than both him and my ex even though I work part time :-D even though both have senior high earning jobs...to those up thread who say it’s rare). I have no plans to ever get married. After seeing the financial loss for both male and female friends (high earners but not with SAH partners) I see marriage as a financial arrangement not something you’d enter for love.

To those up to who say you chose the wrong partner. What a dumb thing to say.

zsazsajuju · 29/09/2018 23:17

@neweternal. I think quite a lot of men but probably more women get married for money. How many women have come on this thread to tell the op she should have married someone “ambitious” and married the “right man” and so on. How many threads on mumsnet where people are telling women to marry for “protection”.

For me this is weird but actually I think it’s really quite common when I thought about it and the people that I know. I just never had it in me to marry for money.