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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Specific issue order for holiday or just go for complete child arrangements order?

26 replies

Originallymeonly · 13/07/2018 23:21

Divorced since May 2018. Solicitor advised at the time that as ex refused to leave ex marital home until court ordered, to only pursue financial settlement.
So CMS claim in place and informal arrangements for ex to have 2 children from 6pm, over 2 nights, midweek. No weekends. His choice.
He is now refusing to give me written permission for an overseas holiday as he believes it is unfair that I plan to take the children away for a week Saturday to Saturday. He thinks I should arrange overseas holiday around his time. This would obviously not be possible in half term.

I am preparing for court as litigant in person - the previous court action cost me £11000 so I am not able to pay a solicitor again. Do I go for a full cao or just ask for court permission to take the children abroad?
There is the added issue of DV, he has been questioned voluntarily once before divorce and arrested although not charged after the divorce for assault, so no mediation possible.
And finally, he has asked me to give him the children's passport as he plans to take them overseas for a week of the school holidays but claims his solicitor has told him he doesn't need my permission as there is no care order in place. I have told him that a care order is not relevant, at no point has there been any suggestions that the local authority may want to take the children into care. When he assaulted me safeguarding enquiries were made and i was advised he is only a risk to me so I should continue to let the children go to his.

Very grateful for any experience you have of anything similar please, I am googling like crazy, planning on going to the free law clinic, but not sure if I am finding £215, should I put a parenting plan in or just ask for permission from the court for a holiday?

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MrsBertBibby · 14/07/2018 06:41

Hahaha, he wants to take them abroad but says you can't? Silly twat.

It's up to you, a specific issue means going back for every holiday, if a CAO is made that the children live with you you no longer need his permission.

He is lying btw. The law is you both need the other's consent to remove from the jurisdiction even for a day trip. Unless you have a live with order.

Are you low wage? Form ex160 may get you a court fee reduction.

This won't get sorted for this summer though. I assume your trip is October?

Originallymeonly · 14/07/2018 09:43

My trip is February half-term. I have been told by friends not to give him the permission for the summer or the passports as he will not reciprocate with permission and may not return the passports. Maybe i am naive but I don't want to be as petty as him. And I don't want the children to miss out on a holiday. They get little enough from him at the moment.

I don't think my income is low enough to avoid the court fees. I really appreciate the advice @mrsbertbibby so will start drafting my statements and parenting plan. Is it the same court as for the financial resolution hearing? I. E. BstEdmunds?

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MrsBertBibby · 14/07/2018 11:10

No not Bury. Put your postcode into this

courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/search/postcode?aol=Children&spoe=start

It will give you the right court.

Don't listen to your friends! Tell him he can take them provided you get travel and accommodation details, and passports returned at the end. Court will love that you let him go even when he says you can't.

You just need to complete C100 and really C1A about DV. Send them to court in quadruplicate with payment. No statements or parenting plans required.

Originallymeonly · 14/07/2018 12:14

So I'm just asking the court to confirm they live with me? So that I can take up to 28 days overseas without needing further permission?

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Originallymeonly · 14/07/2018 12:34

Thanks @mrsbertbibby you just gave me back my weekend!

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BlessedBee · 14/07/2018 12:38

Agree with others, be seen as reasonable and make him look like the highly antagonistic excuse for a man he is. Passports to be returned to you along with the children on handover at day x.

MrsBertBibby · 14/07/2018 12:53

I would ask both for specific permission for this holiday, but in addition, a CAO that they live with you, on the basis your ex has been difficult over a perfectly reasonable request.

That way you'll escape the magistrates as they generally don't do leave to remove (in my court anyway) and hopefully get the live with order to sort out future disputes.

Kippiwoo · 15/07/2018 17:27

My ex has been charged with assault and we can go to mediation. He won’t agree to it but they said we could have had it, despite the charge. They even said that they would arrange it so we would have minimal contact and would never be alone together e.g. in the waiting room. Could you try again?

Originallymeonly · 15/07/2018 19:59

@kippiwoo we tried mediation before the financial resolution, he argued with my factual descriptions and gaslighted throughout the first session (e. G. If i said "my daughter has swimming lessons on Thursday" he said she didn't) then afterwards ignored everything he'd agreed to in mediation, so much so that the mediator decided not to bother sending letters with what had been agreed, because he had completely ignored it all between the sessions, and told me that I'd be wasting my money to try any more mediation. Part of the reason he was arrested was theft of my property as he decided his solicitor "should have added" items to the court order so decided to just take what he wanted.
I meet the criteria for not attending Miam through about 3 different ways on the list, and I've been trying to resolve all these issues for almost a year without success.
If i say black, he says white, on principle, even if we're looking at coal.
Not 100% sure he'd even respect a court order but that's what the police are for i guess.

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MrsBertBibby · 15/07/2018 21:03

Mediation is clearly not going to help here. Stick to your guns, OP.

somuchbetter · 16/07/2018 01:38

The court will not and can not issue a specific order that you can go abroad in general. Each time you want to go you have to reapply. at least that's what they told me (I requested this part of my child arrangement order and was refused as not possible). You can however take them for 28 days if they live with you.
Talk to your ex and tell him you are allowed to take them for holidays. If he wishes to stop you he has to apply for a court to stop you. No court will do this if he has no valid reasons. Unless you travel to specific countries which have specific requirements you do not need written permission from him to travel with your kids.
Hopefully he'll see some sense.

MrsBertBibby · 16/07/2018 06:46

You can however take them for 28 days if they live with you.

No, you can take them for up to 28 days if you have a Child Arrangements Order stating that they live with you. (Or a Residence Order in old money).

Hence applying for both an order in respect of this particular trip, and a CAO which would resolve the problem long term if granted.

Rachaelmerry · 16/07/2018 13:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Originallymeonly · 16/07/2018 14:53

@mrsbertbibby thank you again.

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Originallymeonly · 14/08/2018 18:47

Got my first direction hearing date through, got my Miam exemption, he gets the court paperwork on return from holiday with the children, which is kind of ironic.
Been told to arrive an hour beforehand "for discussions" but as I don't have a solicitor or barrister this time I won't be expected to discuss with him will I?

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MrsBertBibby · 14/08/2018 21:25

Get there when ordered. CAFCASS should be there to talk to you.

Originallymeonly · 14/08/2018 21:50

I absolutely will, I wasn't sure if they would expect me to talk to him considering they've given the Miam exemption. Happy to talk to cafcass

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Standinguptononsense · 15/08/2018 11:49

How did you get your miam exception? X

Originallymeonly · 15/08/2018 17:15

Included the police report from when he was arrested and listed the previous assault on a c100 i think, it's named upthread, its about risk of harm, it covers me and the children but obvious he's not considered a risk to them.

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Standinguptononsense · 15/08/2018 17:54

OK will have a look. Thank you.

PatheticNurse · 15/08/2018 18:22

When parent's are separated, where should thing's like passports be held - or does it not really matter?

Our children live with me but stay with STBXH alternate weekends and a couple of nights during the school holidays. He isn't happy that l currently have the passports as l go abroad next as he feels that as he paid for them they are his to keep hold of.

MrsBertBibby · 15/08/2018 20:17

Just keep them. They are the property of HMGovernment, I believe.

PatheticNurse · 15/08/2018 21:31

Thank you. That's what l said to stbxh... but as the Queen probably wasn't interested in having them... and as l was using them next, then I'd hang on to them for now

Originallymeonly · 16/08/2018 08:23

1st contact from Cafcass

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Originallymeonly · 07/10/2018 01:13

Update!
Arrived at 8.30am, left at 12 with a Live with order, either of us can have up to 2 weeks holidays with 4 weeks notice and I can go overseas without seeking his permission. He needs my permission to go overseas, so the passports stay with me.
My youngests contact is set out, to the minute, and the eldest has contact entirely at her own discretion. That was Cafcass suggestion after I described the disastrous holiday where wasband stomped off in a huff and left her alone in Disney, and then carried on ignoring her for 24 hours more.
Cafcass said she is a little bit younger than they usually give this choice but they didn't want me to have to come back on her behalf next year.
I had a Mackenzie Friend in court, and the Magistrates were quite intimidating, I shook so hard i nearly spilled my water, but that was mainly being sat in the same room as wasband.
I'm so glad it's over. I spotted they misspelled my name on the order, which is why it took so long, as reprinting it had to wait until the next case finished, otherwise we'd have finished by 11. Couldn't risk border control refusing to accept the order if the name was different to my passport.

I'd like to thank @mrsbertbibby for the advice, it helped me know what to google and I then understood what I could ask for and what they would not specify.

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