Care home top-up fees

[veryfondoftea]

We are starting to look at care options for my mother who has dementia.
Costs for this are outrageously expensive in our area. Around £1700 a week. If we sell her house we can self fund this for 3 years.
She has no other savings, so as I understand it, once the money from the house sale runs out she will be entitled to council funding.
What I cannot work out is how much this will before?
I am presuming it will not cover the £1700 and I see that there is usually an option for a third party ( this would be me) to pay a top up fee to keep her in the nicer/ more expensive care home.
Is anyone able to give me an idea of how much this top up fee is likely to be? I realise it will vary but anyone who can give an example from their own experience would be helpful.
Thanks in advance

@IIdentifyAsInnocent that sounds like my idea of a really good days shopping. Especially with dinner at the end to look forward too!! (Room for a little one?!)

yep poa is a lovely thing to do in theory. But a bit like theme parks - the reality is quite different. I know it’s only like doing your own finances, but it’s so much stress worrying about making a mistake or being accused of financial impropriety when it’s not your own money.

@veryfondoftea how are you getting on with investigating this?

We're in a similar position - DM lives on her own, has dementia and a lot of support at home with carers (and me doing everything else) but I'm not sure how much longer she can live alone. She's particularly bad at the moment, calling me all the time when I'm working etc very anxious about things and thinking she's not at home, is lost etc when in reality she has very limited mobility and can't leave her flat alone. She just seems to get very scared very quickly and although she is very resistant to a care home, I wonder if that would be the safest / most reassuring thing for her. She has some savings but those would go very quickly and I'd then have to sell her flat, which I have no problem with but it'll take time and I still can't get a handle on what happens in the interim / what the costs are likely to be, how it differs between private vs council-run care homes - there is just so much conflicting information online. I called the community ageing team and they couldn't even point me to a list of council run care homes in the area and said I'd have to just put in an application. They also suggested calling Help the Aged for advice, which I haven't had a chance to do yet but I remember speaking to them a couple of years back and being sent back to the community ageing team i.e. going around in circles.

@whatsinanumber

Sorry only just seen this. I have found an assisted living place which is situated next to a care home. You have your own independence in a very small flat but can access lots of the services and activities from the care home.
She would have to sell her home to buy the flat which seems surprisingly cheap. There is also a high monthly fee which she could just about afford and you can pay for things like meals etc
I haven't visited yet but I presume you get screwed out of some of the money when you come to sell the property.
Does anyone have any experience of this type of option?

I would think carefully about the monthly fees. You are liable for these until you sell which can sometimes be quite difficult for these type of properties.

Good luck though. My own story was that we discounted all the bells and whistles care homes for my mum as not all the facilities were available to dementia residents. Found a lovely small home, the LA social service and finance departments were superbly helpful, they managed to get a disregard of all fees for 6 months then put a charge on mum's property and sent us an invoice every month. They took her state pension into account so we sent that to them each month which was taken off the outstanding amount. After she died we were able to pay the outstanding cost from her savings and ours and kept her house.

@veryfondoftea Have a look at the McCarthy and stone threads and various articles on google (other search engines are available!). They are good at what they do, but services are highly variable between complexes, and there are high ground rent, service charges and fees on selling. They can take a long time to sell and resale tends to be at much lower than purchase price.

mil was in one and loved it. But it’s not for those with severe Alzheimer’s. She lasted 5 years before a care home move was almost insisted on by the complex she was in. - we had a discussion’ whereby it was agreed her needs could no longer be met.

Thank you both for your insights. One of the places we're considering is indeed a McCarthy & Stone property. I have now seen the threads and will proceed with caution. Perhaps renting is better?
The other one we're looking at is a Barchester property. I'm not sure how they compare. I'd imagine they're are similar issues in terms of reselling.

In a way I suppose I have discounted the possibility of their being any money left by the time my Mum dies, so I don't really mind about the resale value etc. I just want her to have the best possible living situation/ care for as long as she is with us.

I hadn't considered the fact that we'd be liable for the monthly fees until we sell. This is more of a concern. What would happen if she had to move into care and we couldn't sell? How would we fund it then?

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-10182583/The-retirement-home-scandal-wiping-life-savings.html

Be very wary of any retirement village type schemes. It could be financial suicide!

@veryfondoftea It is nearly 5 years ago since mil was in her flat. We had to pay her he fees from our own money. There was no disregard or set aside once she moved into the care home. We were fortunate to pay both care home fees and continuing flat charges from mil bank account. Had she died, we would have had to pay the fees (from savings, income or a loan) ourselves and recoup the fees from her estate (once flat was sold) before distributing any inheritances to the remaining children.
You may (MAY!) now be able to have m and s place a financial order on the flat during the sale period and then have them recoup outstanding debts upon the release of funds from said sale on completion.

Renting will be a lot easier for you, come the inevitable, as it is much ‘easier’ to give notice on a rented property, clear it and begin to process your own grief, and rebuild your own life, without having to deal with a property sale and everything that entails on top of an already stressful period.

I agree with wanting to just make her life easy and comfortable. Which is how we viewed it. My Dh and I knew it would be tough and it was.

The rental cost is £4k a month. I can't quite get my head around spending this kind of money, I'm so conditioned by the idea of owning somewhere. But I suppose essentially the money is all going to end up being spent on her care so maybe it doesn't matter

But I suppose essentially the money is all going to end up being spent on her care so maybe it doesn't matter.

@veryfondoftea this is the way to view it. In the end it is all about getting the best quality of life for her as you can.

Quality can mean different things to different people which is exactly why there are so many different options to choose from (given the money to be able to pay!).

Maybe draw up a list of things that mum would want to be able to have and do. Then a list of the things you and she thinks she needs. That might make it easier to decide which options available best meet the best life for your mum.

That's a good idea. Thank you.
I think one of the main issues is choosing a location. Which is either to come closer to us where she doesn't know anyone else but does get a lot of joy from the grandkids and obviously I can help more, take her to the theatre etc which she loves. Or keep her where she is near to her friends and some family.
I'd prefer for her to come closer to us but I expect she will resist

Sorry, 4k a MONTH to rent? Is this a one bedroom flat in a block? I hope that includes food, utilities, council tax and monthly service charge. Otherwise that's outrageous. You're not far off care home fees with that!

My mum had dementia and was just about coping in a fashion with us doing all household tasks including bathing and hair washing. She was capable of making herself a cuppa and putting a ready meal in the oven although we had a few occasions where she forgot to take it out. Then she had a stroke which overnight left her unable to stand or walk and doubly incontinent. She was hospitalised for 3 months then had to go into a home. We were fee paying and it cost £1,400 a week. This was in 2017. We rented her house out and with that as well as her pension and her widow's occupational she had to fund about £1,000 a month from her savings. She lived there for 2 years. This is in London.
A relative had the same condition but lives in Hampshire and she had a live in carer for £900 a week. This was last year.

Yes £4k a month. This doesn't include food or most bills. It is a lot isn't it. Care home fees around here are £1700 a week but obviously you get lots more for that. The thing is that I know she won't agree or be happy in a care home but I could possibly see this set up working.

This is not usually a good idea for anyone with dementia. I’ve heard of too many cases where people have been asked to leave after a short time, because they’ve started bothering other residents (e.g. knocking on doors at 2 am, repeatedly locking themselves out, etc.)
And then you have to move them all over again, usually to a care home.

It’s as well to remember that dementia is only ever going to get worse.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

This does concern me. Surely it's not that easy to insist that someone leaves a property if they've brought it?

@veryfondoftea they tend to go the route of a best interest meeting and emphasising that for the safety of all residents - your loved one included, it would be best if you started to look at a care home environment.
Tbf they are not set up for moderate to severe dementia, they don’t have the ability to stop people wandering etc, they don’t have the staff available or dementia training to the same standard as a care home, and it’s unfair to inflict some behaviours exhibited by some dementia suffers on other residents, especially when the entire complex building is considered to be everyone’s home. For example no one should be fearful of using the residents lounge, laundry facilities or restaurant due to someone else’s behaviour. When living in flats you are still in close proximity to neighbours.
whilst not exactly insisting, they can and do make it very clear that they will not be responsible if something unfortunate should happen to a resident suffering from dementia - such as wandering away from the complex at night in unsuitable attire and being unable to find their way back.

It's in the same grounds as a care home which caters for dementia. I'm not sure if this will make a difference

Care home fees are in excess of £1000 per week.

Like you say, you will usually need to self fund for 3 years. Once funds drop below £23,500 the LA will step in.

Crucially, all pensions, state and private, attendance allowance will be swept up and will count towards the LA contribution which where I live is around £800 per week. Your contribution will be the "top up" i.e. the difference which is what you will need to find.

Tricky, expensive business.

@Alphabet1spaghetti2 , plus, it’s unfair to inflict what may often be difficult or anti-social behaviour on other residents, who will often themselves be elderly and/or frail. The fact that the person sadly cant help it, is beside the point.

@veryfondoftea then the care home they will suggest is the care home in the grounds. The care home set up for dementia residents is very different than the flats, as will the staff ratios and training be very different.
Very very basic - the flats will not and cannnot deprive residents of the free will to leave their flat or the building. Whereas the care home can. (Dols etc apply).

I would be careful about assuming your mother will hate a care home. When my MiL moved in she was unsettled for a short while but the care home expected that and knew how to manage it. And after a few weeks once she was settled into a routine she was very happy. She would have hated the idea pre dementia but it was definitely the right place for her at the time.

Can she afford a live-in carer?

We went to look around a care home today and there is absolutely no way my mum needs to go into this type of environment yet.
She is still relatively independent in many ways.
By contrast the retirement place we visited seemed absolutely ideal for her but I am wary after some of the comments on this thread.
So tricky to know what to do.