Assets and paying for funeral

[Kevinyoutwat]

My dad had been in a care home since December 21. He went in for respite after a hospital stay and never came out, the plan was to move him back home with carers, but hospital and respite deteriorated him so much that it was unsafe for him, he lasted 24 hours at home before we had to put him in a permanent care home, it was clear he would have harmed himself or someone else if left alone for a second.

A social worker deemed him to lack capacity in late Jan, he’s under dols.

While he was staying with me prior to that, sept-dec 2021, he finally realised that he wasn’t going to drive again, so he gave his car to dh in the December.

Not that we could afford to insure and run two cars, so it’s been sat in the garage ever since.

With everything that was going on with my dad (it’s been stressful to say the least), we didn’t legally sign the car log book over to dh until April.

We didn’t have the headspace, we were having a nightmare selling my dads home for the care fees, his bank were terrible sorting out the POA on his account, we had to go through complaints the lot, the company who owns the care home were hassling me on a weekly basis for their money as the sale was dragging on.

Anyway, the car has SORN and just sitting there ever since.

I need to sell it. It’s a constant reminder of everything that’s gone on, what’s been lost and we will never be able to afford to run it. And it’s just sat there rotting away.

It’s worth about 2k.

Everyone is giving me conflicting advice. It’s dh car. Log book in his name. So he can legally sell
it and keep the money.

But, my dads money will run out in 10 months.
Are Social services going to ask about his car? They go though bank statement for years back don’t they, to make sure that no assets have been disposed of - they will see he was running one, paying car insurance/petrol etc.

I’ve spoken to two solicitors, both told me conflicting things.

Dh is just going to sell it and we’ll keep the money in a separate account incase they want it. It’s worth about a week and a half of care home fees, for context.

Also, before his money runs out can I pre pay for a direct cremation from his bank account (I have POA)? The charge is 1.4k.

I won’t be able to pay for one when the time comes otherwise. My dad always told me that he had a funeral plan. I finally got the courage to open his “death box” a couple of months ago
and yes, he’s got his funeral planned to an T - only, he didn’t actually pay for it like he led me to believe. He obviously never thought he would have to go into a care home, this all happened within the space of 6 months . He planned what he wanted was on the basis that he thought he would die and leave me as the sole beneficiary with a house and all his savings, he never envisaged it would all go on care fees. So his plans to pay for it are basically, “use the savings in my current account.”

I can’t give him the funeral he wants, that would cost thousands, but I thought I could pre pay for the cheapest option, a direct cremation. That way, we would get his ashes back and could have a memorial.

Again, I’ve been told conflicting things on that.

Sorry if these are stupid questions, I’m not
coping with any of this.

I’ve spoken to solicitors who offer free half hours and say they are specialists this, I’ve spoken to age U.k. and the other charities everyone says to contact, but they tell me something different.

I tried asking the social worker who assed him these things and she just kept talking about “money grabbing families”. These thing are
important and causing me stress, I’d just like to know.

From googling it appears that provided your dad didn’t buy the car to deliberately reduce his assets then it’s viewed as a personal possession and not an asset:

seatons.co.uk/legal-services/residential-care-fees-protection/exempt-assets-for-residential-care-fees/

it says similar in crag:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/301250/CRAG_34_April_2014.pdf (Page 30).

HMRC seem to view personal cars as a wasting asset and not worth charging for CGT so maybe cars aren’t part of the things the LA would be interested in given there was time between him giving up driving and going to the care home, and it’s a personal possession?

disclaimer: I’m just an idiot searching the internet, I am not a lawyer/tax advisor/remotely in the know.

He owned that car for 8 years, and it’s wasn’t/isnot high value. Now it’s only worth about 2k anyway.

Thank you for helping.

From what I'm reading, OP, it might be an idea to open a separate account and use your POA to transfer £14250 into it. (perhaps including proceeds of car sale).

That way, it will be clear when his assets are approaching zero for the purposes of care funding - I've not been in this situation myself but given the glacial speed with which LA assessments take place, and the £3k/fortnight depletion by care home fees, I wouldn't be surprised if his funds dropped below £14250 in the 'lag period' & you'd have the devils own job to get them back.

Happy to be contradicted on this, but with social workers with a mindset of 'money grabbing families' , I doubt they'd let a minor detail like legal entitlement stop them.

One solicitor told me to do just that, another said I couldn’t as it was fraud. Even though it would be an account in his name.

One person at the bank said I could open another account in his name and move money over, someone else at the bank said I couldn’t…

One solicitor told me to just stop paying at 23k.

Then the LA could claim back anything. the care home said he would be given a weeks notice and the LA probably wouldn’t be able to find him a funded place.

I feel like I’m living in a cruel joke and my dad is the punchline.

And if state or other pensions go up his money will last slightly longer.

It's a moving target to work out how much he has left.

Does he have more than one account, that you can move money between?

Have you tried the Age UK helpline?

I would write down all your questions and what you've been told so far and give them a ring.

Sympathies, @Kevinyoutwat - it is a shambles isn't it, dogged by administrative delays from the LA and a fairly ruthless care home from the sound of it. And your ill dad at the heart of it ❤️
It sounds like you'll have about 7 weeks (between £23k and £14k) to be banging on doors and getting social care to either find a new place (less than ideal) or agree to fund his current placement.

Yes, again it was all conflicting advice to everyone else.

Even they never mentioned attendance allowance when I asked if he should be claiming anything.

No. He closed down everything a few years ago and put it all in one current account to make things easier for me when he died.

There is a lot of bad advice here. Approach your local Adult Social Care requesting a financial assessment for him when he has around £30k left in savings. He'll be eligible for support with funding his placement once he drops below £23,250 but there are backlogs everywhere with getting the assessment done so this will give them a bit of time. Bear in mind the local authority will only pay up to a certain rate so if he's in an expensive home/room he may need to move once he's eligible for funding, unless a third party can top up the fees. His funds will not run down to £0, he'll have money left to pay for a funeral. The car value is likely to be taken into account.

I’ve been doing more googling and cars aren’t, unless they bought a high value one to deprive assets and gave it straight away to someone.

No one can top up his fees. There is only me.

So yes, he will have to move.

But that’s what’s infuriating the home are one second saying they will try and get them to fund the whole place, the next that there is no chance and I will have to pay the shortfall.

They have said they will contact the LA when the time comes. But I don’t trust them. They said they would lease with the company that owns them when his bank were taking forever with POA and we couldn’t pay them. They didn’t and the next thing I knew, I had the finance team hounding me saying they would take me to court. So I don’t really trust them to do anything.

And ALL the homes here are 1.3k or 1.4k a week. There was no where cheaper.

Everyone keeps saying “if he wants to stay in an expensive home, someone will need to top up” but there was no where cheaper! I went to see a dozen at least, all the same price.

I know this isn't what you were asking, but has your dad been assessed for Continuing Healthcare funding? The threshold is quite high and a high proportion of people seem to be told that they don't qualify when the assessment is initially carried out, but I have now come across many people whose parents with dementia have qualified for funding. This isn't
means tested so would cover the entire cost of the care home fees and would not mean that assets would have to be sold. You need to demonstrate that he has a primary health care need rather than a social care need, but depending on how his dementia manifests itself and his other health needs, it's definitely worth investigating. If you Google continuing healthcare funding, you will find a lot of information. There are several companies which will prepare your case for a fee, but Beacon Healthcare, who you will see on a Google search, give free advice on eligibility and applications. I'm currently going the the appeal process for my late mothers funding and they have been really helpful.

Nhs continuing care should be fully funding fees if he's unable to live at home for medical reasons. They will not offer, you have to demand an assessment. It's 5 years since I went through this but pretty sure the law hasn't changed

Ignore the comments about CHC. Someone has to have highly complex medical needs to get this (that complex that a care home can't manage them). Everyone in a care home is there because they can't live at home for medical reasons!

All homes will charge more for self funders and will have quoted you those rates when looking. Once he is eligible for local authority funding hopefully a room at their rates will be found somewhere, they'll sort this for you. They deal with this all the time, try not to worry.

People always talk about continuing healthcare on this board, but I have spoken to an independent company that help people apple for it.

He has dementia, but no other health needs. He’s very fit and healthy apart from his mind.

I’d sell the car to buy the funeral prepaid plan.
It’s simpler than taking money from his account and worrying about a deprivation of assets investigation.

Yes, that’s an option.

But the more I think about it, the more I couldn’t give a shit about an investigation into a £1,400 cremation fee. It’s not like I am borrowing thousands for myself or anything.

I just don’t want to be dealing with any of this. My dad held his money over me my entire life. And now I’m having to deal with all this. my life is horrible. I’m not living. last year was hell with the care homes, selling his flat.

I wish I could just chuck all his fucking money at them and tell them to keep the lot of it, just piss off and leave me alone.

CHC is a postcode lottery the same as everything else, my old LA was virtually impossible to get, in 16 years social work with older adults I managed to get full funding for four clients. Four out of literally hundreds. And that was more than most managed. But in the neighbouring Authority it was much easier. Nearly every client I had, had dementia of one sort or another and more than one other condition.

Re top ups, no one can force anyone to pay a top up. If you cannot pay, dont budge on that. What happens in reality is that the LA come to an agreement with the home that has given notice until an alternative placement that takes LA rates can be found. They will try all sorts of emotional blackmail to get you to pay, but they cannot make you. Your dad will not be put out on the streets, they have a duty of care towards him and this will not happen.

From when he started getting ill, his money is all other people have cared about.

Every care home, social care. It’s all just about what he can pay.

Oh I know they can’t. I don’t even earn half of what the top up would be a month.

They can ask all they like, it’s never going to happen and I will make that clear to everyone from the outset.

I’ve had enough emotional blackmail form hospitals and social workers already.

Yes it does seem that way, and I am so sorry you are going through this. Its a vile and horrible situation. This was one of the reasons I took early retirement, I just couldn't do this to people any longer. Its not what I went into the profession for. The system is screwed, and ethics and care have gone out of the window.

There has been lots of discussion but to summarise:

he will be left with enough money to pay for his funeral. You don't need to move any money around to keep a pot for it separate. You can also pay for it now and the local authority won't bat an eyelid about it. It's a very common situation.

contact the local authority when he has around £30k left as they need time to do the care act assessment and then financial assessment

he won't be thrown out on the street if the money runs out. In the vast majority of situations where that happens (again it's pretty common) the local authority agree to pay the top up as long as the placement can still meet the need and it's not a completely ridiculous cost. It's hard enough at the moment to find any care home placement so its what is happening by default a lot of the time anyway.

don't tell anyone about the car. Just sell it and deny all knowledge it ever existed.

What is your Dad's prognosis/ diagnosis. You don't need to say here but take a look at continuing healthcare funding and see if he meets the criteria for that. Ask his care home to refer him to social services for a care assessment and for advice re. his estate and funding. You need that point of contact to be able to get the answers to all of these questions that are specific to your local authority and how they apply the rules.

Sorry you're going through all of this. Negotiating adult social care is beyond stressful. X