Please help

[Demquery]

Just don't know what to do. My mum's behaviour is increasingly erratic and my elderly dad is struggling to cope with her aggressive, paranoid and nasty behaviour. The GP prescribed anti-anxiety medication which helped but sometimes, like today, she refuses to take any medicine saying it's poison etc. She can't be reasoned with, of course. Tried to call 111 but was on hold for ages then gave up. Saturday night and local dementia organisations aren't open now. What else can we do? Do they ever section dementia patients? That sounds extreme but her behaviour is making me wonder. Thank you for listening.

My mum was given some mild antipsychotics to help calm her aggressive behaviour. Dad used to hide her pills in delicious chocolate mousse as otherwise she would refuse to take them

I'm sorry. I don't know what else you do at this point on a Saturday night. But I just wanted to say I'm really sorry you are going though this. Dementia is bloody hard..

Yes they can be sectioned but I'm not sure how.

If she thinks that the medicine is poison, does she have Delirium?

If her behaviour is causing her to be a danger to herself or others and you need help straight away then it's a medical emergency and ringing 999 or out of hours adult social care and they will arrange a mental health act assessment

if it can wait until Monday then you need to get on to the GP again and ask for a referral to the older adults mental health team. It's usually possible to self refer too but can depend on area.

at the same time ring adult social care and ask for a care act assessment. Even if they don't need anything right now it gets them in the system.

yes, people with dementia can be sectioned and frequently are if needed.

The GP can request a mental health act assessment.

the nearest relative (different to next of kin but in the OP would still be her dad) can also request one to be considered.

the police have some powers to temporarily detain someone under the MHA if needed.

Thank you for your replies and support. My dad spoke to various mental health helplines etc late last night. He was told to call again today to get mum assessed. If she doesn't want to leave the house (likely), they they'd probably inject a sedative so it would be calm and dignified. It's just all so upsetting and stressful. (I don't think it's delirium regarding the medication but rather part of the general paranoia but we will certainly ask the doctor about it, thank you).

Hi, from experience yes, people with dementia can be sectioned. My dad was after he assaulted a neighbour and my mum called the police and ambulance. 😕

But in our case that meant my dad never went home again as they knew he couldn't get better and therefore couldn't guarantee he wouldn't do it again. It was very tough as he spent a few weeks in a secure unit refusing all diagnostic tests. Finally, once diagnosed he was discharged to a (secure!) dementia care home where he stayed. The upside was that he was under NHS, not local authority care, it was paid for. Not sure if that's the case now though.

Does your mum/dad have a social worker? We found them quite helpful. We also (pre diagnosis) found the GP really helpful as my dad refused all engagement with them. Worth trying that again.

Once he was in the system I found the professionals and care home people bloody brilliant though. They knew exactly how to talk to him and we learned a lot from that.

It's a tough road so I'm sending to you all.

Hello, wondered if you had any uodate on this please? In similar position with Family member at the minute and wondered experiences of people being sectioned with dementia?
I hope things have calmed down for you all now and your Mum is in a better state 💐

@Sunnysideups1 my DF was sectioned a couple weeks ago. He was being aggressive verbally and physically. We had a social worker visit who witnessed first hand what we were going through. That day my DF abused myself and DM for 5 hours until we took ourselves out of the situation and other relatives stayed with DF. MH nurses came out and assessed DF, prescribed meds that he refused to take and we were advised to never leave DM alone sith DF. I rang the social worker and nurses and said we cant manage and how can we be expected to keep this up? They agreed and DF was sectioned. It took a week of absolute hell, lots of phone calls etc but cant fault how amazing the MH team were once the wheels were in motion.

Oh my goodness what an awful situation, and yes of course a very unrealistic expectation to be able to support that alone; and for how long! My Nan has been sectioned now although there is no bed and hasn’t been for a week!! She was waiting at the care home (who have tried to charge 4000 a week on top of normal fees for the care she suddenly needs!?! We have said no, so they have taken her to a hospital without actually letting us know until it was done, however now at least she will hopefully be a priority for a bed! Such a nightmare but that’s good to hear your experience once things started happening is good? What’s it like now your DF is sectioned? Has it helped? My DN is very anxious and becomes violent, I so hope they can help with her medication as she actually can still do so many things and enjoy so much if managed to control this side. What’s it like where your DF is?xx

@Tara336

@Sunnysideups1 I was apprehensive about the place where DF was taken. If I hadn't actually asked the name and address I think they would have wheeled him off and we wouldn't have known a thing about it. But other then it being nearly an hours drive away it is very nice, bright, clean and beautifully decorated I was pleasantly surprised! The staff that we've been in contact with are lovely, very caring and genuinely concerned for DF and took the time to talk to us about the dementia.

DF seems calmer hes not been physical but has been verbally aggressive and veers from being angry with us to tearful and asking to come home.

Physically he seems frailer but he won't eat and it is something the staff have been worried about but that was something we had been struggling with as well.

The only thing that is off-putting is all the locks on doors everywhere and that you have to wait for staff to open them, there are some people in there that are scary and it does feel a little unsafe when you hear an alarm go off and staff start running around.

DF is up for review the week after next as section 2 is a maximum of 28 days. We are hoping they will continue caring for him under section 3 as we had 9 care homes reject him due to his behaviour and we can't go back to having him home and being at physical risk again.

Just wanted to give a quick update in case it helps anyone. Mum was admitted to hospital not long after my first post and remains there but is likely to be discharged into a dementia care home.

She was prescribed RISPERIDONE (an anti psychotic for dementia and other patients) and has been much calmer.

Sadly the dementia is continuing to progress (obviously it only gets worse) and she speaks very little now.

Sending good wishes to anyone else going through this 💐

@Demquery that's what DF was prescribed at home, unfortunately it interacted with other medication he was taking and it didn't go so well as DF could barely walk when he took it and my DD had to carry him to bed (DF is very frail now) we were told to try a half dose and managed to convince him to take it while already in bed but he resisted taking it again after that and his behaviour reverted back to aggression which is why we had him sectioned. He seems to be sedated again in the home but we don't know what it is (I assume we will be told at the CPA meeting) he is definitely calmer yesterday when visited but DM said he was very obviously "on something" maybe they have tweaked the dose or fou d something else that's effective

@Demquery thank you for the update. I’m so sorry to hear your Mum doesn’t speak much now, it’s scary how it can progress suddenly then seemingly no change for a while. I hope the care home your Mum goes to is a good fit.
@Tara336 thank you for the info, this is really reassuring to hear. Last night Nan was taken from the hospital (similarly to you, she was taken without any notice to us, I turned up to find her gone!) to a mental health unit where her 28 days can begin. I’m relieved it’s starting now, and so hope she settles okay. Argh it’s such a worry isn’t it! Thanks so much for your messages. Will the section 3 be at the same hospital for your Dad?xx

@Sunnysideups1 Everything is a lot nicer at the unit then I expected, its very homely with nicely papered walls in the tv lounge, beautiful curtains and comfy armchairs. The only noticeable difference is there are staff members seated in there at all times to supervise. DF is always smart and well turned out when we visit and they let us take in favourite foods and drinks and he us definitely being offered them.

One Tip: label everything the staff were grateful we have, as patients are not aware of what is there's and DF was wearing someone else's cardigan on one visit. I got some labels off Amazon that you just write on and stick in clothes they were about £3 and are great! They are made by Avery.

I dont know if DF will definitely get section 3 but I've been led to believe it's almost guaranteed it will happen by others who have been through this. I would imagine once a place is available closer to home he would be moved there as everything will be less of a rush. The day he was sectioned I was told they try to get a place as close to home as possible but DF is in the same county but its an hours drive away. I would also hope that now he's calmer it may be easier to find a place for him.

We will find out on Friday what the outcome will be but I know if we have hom home he will immune stop taking his medication and will start all the behaviours we were experiencing previously. The shadowing was so stressful for my DM he wouldn't even let her use the loo on her own, when she began asking him to stop or tried to leave the house for space it triggers the aggression. On one occasion I arrived to take her grocery shopping and DF was swearing, blocking door ways, waving his walking stick at us and making threats to kill himself. We can't live like that again.

@Tara336 thank you for the tip! That sounds much better than I envisaged too. DN had been at a lovely care home before she starting behaving aggressively and it’s just such a shame for her. Isn’t it so ironic that care homes for dementia patients cannot deal with such a common symptom of dementia. I do understand it’s extremely hard to manage of course but it’s so stressful as a family member to feel at a loss of what to do with your loved one.
Oh my goodness, yes you absolutely cannot have your DF home. That wouldn’t be sustainable at all or fair on any of you, or him. Fingers crossed he gets approved for the section 3, it sounds like he should doesn’t it. Let me know how he gets on. We spoke to the unit DN is in earlier and they said we cannot visit for time being until she has negative PCR so hopefully that won’t be long as be nice to see where she is. It’s a relief that they can’t throw her out at least 😂 🤦🏼‍♀️Xx

@Sunnysideups1 really long meeting today with 10 of us in there. Dr's, Nurses, OH etc. He has been discharged from Section 2 but detained under Dols (deprivation of liberty). We were told he was all B's on Continuing Healthcare so we wouldn't get help with funding but they feel DF is probably better being sent to a nursing home rather then a care home. My understanding is that a nursing home would be funded. It was all very overwhelming and I felt they were definitely avoiding the Continuing Healthcare route (apparently we can appeal). DNR was agreed and also that any infection would not be treated now and he will instead be kept comfortable. I saw DF after and he just cried, he didn't understand what was being said to him and he couldn't remember my DM name. He has deteriorated again in less then a week. The Dr said he is a bit difficult about some things eating, meds etc but they have not had the aggressive behaviour we have had experienced he said that is normal for patients to either behave as the see the Dr as authority or he said they can behave much worse.

@Tara336 ive been thinking of you and your family today- so sorry this has been so stressful. I didn’t realise the process at all. Your DF crying afterwards, oh that breaks my heart hearing that, so I can’t imagine what that must of been like to be a part of it all.
So what will happen immediately? Will your DF be able to stay there while you find him a nursing home?
My DG is in a nursing home, also with dementia. He is much further progressed than my DN but the home is just wonderful, so lovely. And it’s reassuring that they don’t need to move on from there. Hopefully your DF can be somewhere similar. Is it better for your DF to go down the continuing healthcare route rather than a nursing home then? Hope you don’t mind the questions, I’m just trying to understand so we know when this happens- it’s all so confusing isn’t it! So was your DF present for this meeting? That must of been stressful if so.
Thats one positive thing that your DF hasn’t been aggressive whilst in there, that’s good as that can’t be nice for him to feel that way when he’s like that; so perhaps he’s a bit happier in a way not feeling such extreme feelings leading him to be aggressive.
Why a nursing home for him if you don’t mind me asking? Feel free to PM me if you don’t want to explain, or not reply at all. Know it must of been a very difficult day x

@Sunnysideups1 yesterday was exhausting. Continuing Health care would fund some of the costs we will have but DF was all b's on the questionnaire to be honest the Dr was unsure of a lot of the answers whether to give an A or not (meaning funding would be approved) and was taking guidfrom a woman on a video call whi had never met DF or seen his notes. We may appeal I'm not sure yet. Df stays where he is until financially assessments, funding and a suitable home is found. I'm not sure how long that may take but the Dr also started mentioning DR etc and when I questioned a couple things he referred to "we" as in the home and made it sound like DF would be there a while yet. It absolutely broke me yesterday the conversations we had to have, DM crying and then seeing my DF had deteriorated again. Part of me wants this awful situation to be over for him and part of me just does want to lose my DF whatever there is left of him that the dementia hasn't taken yet.