Hi, I am Hully's (from MN) DS. Hully said I could ask you a question!

[Hullygully]

For R.S i have been asked to think, and collect, 10 key points WHY women have suffered from sexism in the past. I can think of HOW, but I am interested in WHY. I would be really interseted and grateful in any thoughts you may have! Thanks!

I guess its because we are not as physically strong as men, not an issue now but really important in days gone by.

We are out of action a lot if we are pregnant.

There are young girls in some parts of the world today that cannot attend school when they are menstruating.

and before contraception was available/accepted women were pregnant for a lot of their adult lives.

i would have thought it would have been in the interests of men (in flintstones times) to subdue women to a certain degree in order to preserve their line. although from what i understand (another thread on here, very interesting) women held a lot of power because they were agriculturally savvy.

Post this in feminism, if you are feeling brave.

yeah, you won't get many people watching Dadsnet i'd have thought. tbh i thought i'd taken it off my feed.

Well, one reason might be because all the main religious texts are written around men being in control/the supreme beings. Doesn't help. (I suppose you might go on to ask WHY they're written in this way.....)

Hello Hully's DS

Perhaps women were perceived as the weaker sex because of their build physically, and then of course menstruation and childbirth etc rendering them not as physically capable as men during childbearing years.

Enjoy you project it sounds interesting. :)

I also think that men might be a little bit jealous of all the super cool and amazing thing that a woman can do.

I think men have been scared witless about how a woman can make them feel.

Just think about Helen of Troy.

Thanks - I posted it in feminism first! Hully DS

I have always thought that sexism in regard to women was a fairly recent interpretation. Women are venerated in ancient literature/paintings etc because they can do the most amazing thing in life: give birth. In many ancient literatures, the women are more powerful/in control than the men.

Until women recognised that we were as capable of paid work as men were (probably most widely recognised in WW1 and WW2, in our society) and until we had control over our own fertility (started in the 1960s?), taking control of our lives was difficult. Getting a job, in a mainly male environment would have been difficult early on, there were many 'scary' women's problems to consider.

Having said that, the 'male' role of providing for the family still has a very natural pull.

I don't think I am sexist but I do follow the stereotype of wanting DP to do all the heavy, dirty work, while I cook and shop. That's what works for my family though, my mum and dad do the almost exact opposite.

My mum has been a successful business women for many years, but she could only have done this with my dad's support, including him accepting that she was the main earner and he would have to take on a lot of the 'housewife' role.

I think my parents really do have a non-sexist arrangement, they both do the roles they are best at and they are a mix of 'traditional' and 'untraditional' male and female roles for each of them.

Women were despised in the past.

I would challenge anyone to find any text from the past where women were venerated.

There is your challenge then, hullyDS, I think the way I think of sexism and marginalisation (sp?) of women is different to how Damn thinks of it. I think we would agree to disagree very easily, as we both know it's a complicated issue.

What do you think? You've had lots of ideas on here, should make for an A* essay! Good luck x

Men are considered the default position. Try using "her" instead of him in many ordinary situations and see the response you get. Look at the frenzy that surrounds the idea that women get to have freedom of reproduction (abortion is illegal in my own country, and contraception was illegal up to twenty years ago). Try looking at societies that aren't white/Western/prosperous where female children are still sold as babies into marriage with wealthy family connections. Try (if age appropriate) looking at prostitution, where men's 'right' to have sex is still seen to be more important than women's rights not to be trafficked/sold/raped. Try looking at your own peer group and how your female compatriots and friends are treated differently to your male friends for their sexual attitudes.

And good for you for trying to think about it. Men can be feminists too, and one of the hardest roadblocks they have to get over is the whole bull that surrounds 'being a feminist' (we're not man-haters/only some of us are lesbians/we don't want anything other than to end the structures that favour middle-class white males). Try looking at media representations of feminism to get a feeling for how our (perfectly reasonable) positions are framed as being hateful and extremist.

Try most of all looking also at what it means, generally, to step outside of your own position and see the world from a different perspective entirely.

Because men are scared of the power that women have.

Also it's useful I think to understand that because we are all women, but not all the same, we don't always agree with what the causes of the discrimination have been. I understand and respect ChestnutTree's argument, but I would say it's more because that evolved into a situation where men could create empires by selling their female children to other men through marriage; so I would say the fear in itself isn't necessarily the cause, it's what was done with the fear, which was to convert it into a way of those men advancing themselves socially and financially.

I think it is because of paternity, histroically men were unable to truly know whether a child is theirs and so control of women was important to ensure that they only used their resources or effort in providing for their own children. Women also probably spent a lot of their time pregnant or raising young and as women are physically more suited to the task and there were obviously no alternatives at the time.

And the rest was just built upon that foundation and it is part of society in such a way that people generally can't think of doing it in anyway else really.

Am I the first man to post on this?

Hully's DS.

I can't answer your question as I can't see passed my massive privilege.

But don't believe all this women are treated as inferior to men

I bet your Dad doesn't boss your mum around does he?
No, he wouldn't dare.

Men are allowed to believe they are in charge but I reckon in about 95% of the relationships I know the women rules the roost.

My suspicions were first aroused when my children were very little, I used to hear the 'nose to the grindstone' stories of early child-rearing, but it was a subterfuge to make men believe it was easier to be at work rather than look after the children.

Fortunately for me I married a feminist, so I was fully involved with our children from day one, and had a few months unpaid leave when our children were born.
I would go to the local park with DS1 (as my wife needed some 'me' time) and mothers would be there openly laughing and enjoying themselves. Occasionally asking Tarquin if he wanted a humous and grape pannini (and then giving him a chocolate spread sandwich on the sly) so I was suspicious, where was the hardship? The misery?

It's a conspiracy, I would enter the coffee-shop, and silence would descend, as table after table of Boden clad mum would eye me and DS with suspicion, I could sense their thoughts, does he know how much fun it is having children? Have we been rumbled? As I drank my fair trade coffee (at £3 a cup) I started to develop my theories.

I've concluded it's Men that are now oppressed. I will reveal all in my new book,
'Men, they are a bit crap really'

Some more evidence from MN, I won't link as I don't like the truth to interfere with my theories. Threads like:

My DH goes to the pub once a decade and has half a lager, shall I leave him?
This has posters literally frothing at this man showing his obvious disrespect to his family,he should be at home having family time, counting the seconds until deaths blessed relief.

Concensus: He is obviously an alcoholic, Leave him.
I've also learn wine doesn't count as alcohol.

My DH bought a newspaper without discussing it with me first shall I leave him?
He's obviously using his male superioty to think he owns the family money.

Concensus: Leave him.

My DH works 80 hours a week, I'm a stay at home mum, my children are 32 and 37. My DH seems to think him doing 50% of the housework, washimg and cooking is unfair and that perhaps I should get a job I haven't worked and my children are my life , what do you think?

Men! Why shouldn't he do his share? Go on strike, tear him a new one, he's clearly/obviously/definitely out of order.

Concensus: Leave him.

Hully's DS read MN to try and understand women, but believe me you never will.

Hurrah! A male poster.

I've also learn wine doesn't count as alcohol.

I do like that bit very much. heh heh

Hello Hully's DS

Having not read other people's responses, I am going to make a suggestion. My suggestion is for the PAST, the really long-ago past, just because it's interesting.

Human babies are born small and weak and helpless and in need of a lot of care (for a lot of time) if they are to survive.
Women know that babies are theirs, so they know which babies they should invest effort in raising.
Men can't know that babies are theirs (and therefore worth investing time and energy and effort in keeping them alive, feeding them, training them).
Therefore there is a good genetic reason for men to want to control women's behaviour. Men who did not try to ensure that the woman whose children they were investing effort in only had sex with them, their genes did not get passed down as much as men who made sure that the children they were caring for/hunting for/protecting/training were their own.

(of course in this model the men whose genes do best are those who make sure that their mate's children are theirs and some other women's children are theirs too)

This isn't necessarily true of course, like all evolutionary explanations it is only trying to make logical guesses, but this is a fairly sensible explanation for how sexual jealousy could exist.

Hi Trills,

ds is off playing rugby (getting in touch with his manly side), I'll get him to catch up when he's around. Thanks.

Hi actual-Hully :)

Are you getting DS to do research on MN to hone his information-filtering skills? I think teenagers need training in critical thinking so it's a very good idea. :)

It's a bit like Tolkien in here "go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both no and yes".

If you ask opinions of more than one person, you will get more than one opinion.

If you ask for facts on any subject more contentious than "what colour is the sky?" from more than one person, you will get more than one interpretation of the facts.

Sort of. I figured he'd get a lot of interesting and intelligent and different responses to think about, and also it would be really good for him to hear about all this stuff from someone other than me...

Also, he really likes MN, he was very excited to participate!

I am a man

Wow, Hully, my DS regards MN with utter scorn (but then, he is 12).

At what age to they become articulate and interested in the viewpoints of others?