Calling all language lovers!

[Gauchita]

I'll shamelessly plug a friend's blog here because it's great!

If you're interested in language, etymology, linguistics, etc, head this way.

She's an etymology addict (and doesn't mind me saying so ) and is teaching the rest of us a lot, so thank you Alex

alexpolistigers.wordpress.com/

re Splits in languages - I find it fascinating that Spanish and Portuguese are so different (in pronunciation if not in grammar & vocabulary) that most Spanish people don't understand spoken Portuguese, although these nations are neighbours and always have been.

On the other hand, people from Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, and Turkey all understand each other, over 1,000 years after Turks left Central Asia. No meaningful contact since then until last couple of decades. Yet, these three languages are incredibly similar. Azeri & Uzbek sound like "broken" Turkish to me, like a young child would speak, but differences are not important.

yy I can read Portuguese because of Spanish but find it sounds more like Russian when spoken.

Cote re "glentao" - according to my etymological dictionary, it comes from Turkish "eglenti". It was the stem I was referring to as "glent". I have also found "eglendim" and "eglenmek", which I assume are parts of the same verb.

"hasapiko" was my own transliteration - the "h" is a harsh sound, more like the German "ch", so probably halfway between "k" and "h".

This has really been fun to look into, I will have to write an article about Turkish words in use in Greek, or the words common to both languages that come from elsewhere.

Re Glenteo/Eglenti - That g is a "soft g" (has a bar over it) so makes more like a /y/ sound than g.

Eglen = Have fun
Eglenmek = To have fun
Eglendim = I had fun (note the m at the end)
Eglenti = Small fun gathering (a reading at the neighbourhood cafe, for example)
Eglence = Entertainment, party (c is pronounced j in Tr)

Eglenti isn't a frequently used term. You would normally use Eglence. I can only imagine that the word flows better in Greek with a -t, which might be why the Greek word isn't Glenmeo or Glenjeo.

I'm sure that article will be fascinating. Let me know if you need anything

The differences between Danish and Swedish are largely political.

Briefly, and without a book in front of me... The difference between two languages and two dialects of a single language are to do with mutual intelligibility.

So American English and British English are sufficiently different that we consider them separate dialects (slight grammatical differences such as "do you want I should translate that?" v "do you want me to translate that?", and the much-observed vocabulary differences). On the other hand, they are sufficiently similar that someone who speaks one can completely understand the other without the need for a dictionary or translator or subtitles.

On the other hand, if you speak Dutch to me I nod and smile and have No Fucking Idea what you're going on about.

Danish and Swedish are arguably mutually intelligible. One person can speak Danish and another Swedish and they can carry on a conversation. The fact that we call them different languages is mainly in deference to the fact that they are associated with distinct sovereign nations. Linguists disagree but nobody listens to us.

Horry I didn't know that about Danish and Swedish. I knew, of course, that they were close, but I didn't realise it was as close as that. I haven't really looked much at Scandinavian languages. A Russian-speaking friend was telling me all the differences between Russian and Ukrainian recently, and to me it sounded more like Brits complaining about creeping Americanisation than any meaningful differences! I could be wrong, of course!
Anyway, your Danish/ Swedish example has got me wondering how many other "languages" are like that - more politically different than actually different.

Cote Interestingly, the "g" used in Greek is also a soft one, half way between "y" and "g". (I saw the accent over the Turkish letter, of course, but it won't work on MN). You are right about Greek, it really doesn't flow nicely without the "t" in Greek, and "glenmao", for example, sounds awkward. If it had retained the initial "e" ("eglentao") it would have sounded more like a past tense, which might be one reason why it lost that too.

It will take me quite a while to research and write the article, it's not like a short, one-word/expression article, as are many on my blog, this will take more time and thought! But I think I will enjoy it!

alexpoli - I just finished re-reading a book called Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. It is futuristic fiction ("cyberpunk", if you are familiar with the genre) but the story is built on some very interesting bits of information about languages in general and Sumerian language in particular. I can only describe its ideas as mind-blowing.

Please read it. Until about the 200th page, you will hate me and wonder why on earth I recommended it to you (from a linguistic POV) and then you will see

Hello!

Another very busy week with work, so catching up only now.
I had a question to ask you all re. bilingualism/multilingualism at home.
We only speak SP at home. DD is 4, DS will be 2 this month. DS doesn't properly speak yet, only a few words/phrases.
DD has always preferred EN. She understands everything we say in SP but replies in EN.

She only says a few words/phrases in SP but never in full, they're always mixed in between the EN ones.
We do speak EN outside the house. If I'm talking to other people she hears me speak EN and if I have her with me and another EN-speaking person I don't switch back and forth, I speak EN.

If you ask her to repeat something in SP, for example, she either does it but her accent is like an EN native starting to learn SP or she says 'I can't, mami'.

So:

• Should I worry about her not speaking SP?
• Should I do something about it or is it something that will come later?

I don't particularly like the 'I won't speak to you until you say it in SP' approach. I wouldn't be able to put that into practice and feel ok with it so I'm discarding that one.

Gauchita I have almost exactly the same situation as you but with the languages round the other way and less input of the minority language - English.
We live in Spain and I speak EN to the DCs but SP to DH, who obviously speaks SP to DC. So the only EN is from me and stories I read or any tv they watch.
DS is nearly 5 and a half and has been at school for 2 years and although he understands everything I say, SP is totally dominant. He uses some EN but v rarely full sentences...more like "you no puede have it" kind of thing. His SP is a bit behind his peers too. I have worried a lot (he was so to start speaking...only had about 50 words at two and a half) worried it was something I was doing wrong or not doing enough of something, but I'm not sure what else I can do- he's been endlessly read to, sung to, talked to, any tv is EN. We aren't in a position to have long holidays in the UK, in fact he's never been.
DD is 2 and is much much more "normal" in her language acquisition, she repeats everything she hears in both languages and chats away...words, structures the lot.
I think DS is just DS and it's just the way his brain works. I do push it sometimes if I know he can say it, but it just destroys all fluency and spontaneity to do it a lot and I really really don't want EN to become a chore. I speak only EN to him and repeat/model as much as poss:
Puedo have un ice cream?
Can I have an ice cream? Can you say that DS?
etc.
DS also does weird pron too. He keeps saying bag like buy-g.
I think maybe he's just a bit funny with language and in the future if he wants to "activate" this sort of passive knowledge he can live in an EN speaking country or do some study.

My DC are trilingual. DD went through a phase of saying things like "C'est baba car" but then was speaking sentences in each language before the age of 4, iirc. She had only three words at age 3, and one of them was an invented word she used to describe all flying things & animals. It is entirely normal for your DS to have had "only" 50 words at 2.5 - he had two languages to sort out in his head before he could speak.

Can you find him a friend who speaks only English?

Thanks Cote, that's reassuring. By only I just meant it was a small amount compared to what DD has now at not 2.5 and was less than the other bilingual children we knew. No children who only speak EN, no

My DS started speaking earlier than DD, as well. I think there is the 2nd child effect at play. And it's of course easier to figure out a language when you hear speech between two people (me & DD) than just monologues (me alone talking to a baby).

Ah sorry, I just realized my typo below: DD had only 3 words at the age of 2 (not 3).

Thanks for the book suggestion Cote, I will have a look at it when I come back from my holiday! (going to Italy this week, can't wait!)

Gauchita I wish I knew what to suggest re your dd and Spanish, I've been thinking about it, but our whole set up and approach is very different to yours. I only ever speak to the children in English, no matter who else might be present. I don't speak to the children in Greek so that someone else can understand, only in English. My DH only speaks to them in Greek, again, even in the presence of English speakers. I also speak to him in English in their presence - he answers in Greek.

Apart from a couple of instances of temper-tantrum refusal to speak in the "right" language for the "right" person, the children have stuck to this too.

The only thing I can think of to suggest is a long holiday in a Spanish speaking region, visiting your relatives, but of course this could be quite expensive and difficult!

Incidentally, Cote while I was researching and trying to find out more about Turkish, I stumbled across this site, which is quite interesting, especially the Gokturk inscriptions

How did I miss this thread?!

(It comes up when I look for your blog, btw, alex. )

I have never looked into the research for this properly, but anecdotally (from DH and other people I know), I think perhaps the issue with second/third/whatevereth languages isn't so much fluency, as translating between those languages.

I think it must be because we have to systematize somehow, to keep the languages separate, and it is then very hard to override that separation. However, what I don't know is whether this would be the same if you lived in a culture where people habitually and haphazardly mixed languages.

Does anyone live in a bilingual/trilingual culture who has a perspective on this? And does it correlate at all with literacy?

Sorry to be full of questions but this thread is so interesting!

alexpoli - That link is quite good. I'll keep it for the next time I explain how different Turkish is from European languages

Göktürk Inscriptions are indeed very interesting, especially re how little the language has changed in 1,300 years and across two continents. I can understand that text when written in Latin alphabet and that is because many of the words are the same today, like:

Gök = Sky
Türk = Turk
Kirk = 40

... And many others are only slightly different from the words we use today, such as:

"Yiti" = yedi (Tr) = 7
"Üçün" = için (Tr) = for, because
Tengri = Tanri (Tr) = God

You might find it interesting that I wouldn't be able to understand poems written during the Ottoman Empire times as easily, if at all. That is because, as it says in that page you linked to, Ottoman Turkish and especially the "eloquent Ottoman" or "court Ottoman" in which poems were written had a lot of outside influence from Persian and Arabic.

This has led to a curious and rather poignant break from the near past - we know the history of our grandfathers but we don't know their cultural heritage, most of which we can't understand. We can't even try to understand, because it is all written in Arabic letters which we don't even know.

You were searching for my blog, LRD? I am touched!

Having thought about it, I really don't know whether I keep my languages separate, or what exactly I do. They're just there in my mind! Helpful, I know! But I genuinely don't translate to English all the time, I just go straight into the appropriate language, without thinking through what I am going to say in English first, if you get what I mean. Sometimes, when asked by English speaking friends for an explanation, I struggle to find the right words for some things that I understand precisely and clearly in Greek.

I don't know if this is to do with growing up hearing other languages and taking it for granted. Perhaps people growing up in a wholly monolingual environment deal with multiple languages later on in an entirely different way.

I have bookmarked the site, Cote! I thought it was fascinating!

I'm intrigued by how little Turkish has changed. Most people can't read Chaucer from 1340+ or so in English without some special help!

This applies to me too:

I genuinely don't translate to English all the time, I just go straight into the appropriate language, without thinking through what I am going to say in English first, if you get what I mean. Sometimes, when asked by English speaking friends for an explanation, I struggle to find the right words for some things that I understand precisely and clearly in Spanish.

I grew up monolingual and learnt Spanish when I came here as an adult.

(and how come your Turkish letters work fine on MN, but mine don't??)

For a minute there GoodtoBetter I thought I had accidentally written Spanish instead of Greek! And then the penny dropped!

I also learnt Greek as an adult. But I had other languages around me besides English whilst growing up.

I didn't. I don't think GCSE French and German count :)

No, I meant I heard the languages being spoken and used as living languages and means of communication, not the school environment! I did both of those at GCSE too, though!

Well, I should have it bookmarked, but I'm not that organized!

I was trying to find what you said about colours, but it came up on here too.

I think I do languages the same way as you, though I'm not fluent at all. 'Sometimes, when asked by English speaking friends for an explanation, I struggle to find the right words for some things that I understand precisely and clearly in Greek.' - I definitely do that. Though all my languages are school languages, and obviously the concepts I understand in them are quite simple.

I think that is definitely part of why translating is so difficult - it's conceptual as well as syntactic.

But what I was thinking was, maybe the reason people in the UK get so jumpy about bilingualism is that they're seeing people struggle when asked to translate between languages, and interpreting that as a lack of fluency, when it's a separate skill.