On a scale of 1-10 how concerned would you be if your 9yr old who is learning the violin.......

[ToccataAndFudge]

and has now progressed to 2nd finger on the A and D strings doesn't actually know what notes he's playing when looking at the music.

ie - I asked him what the 2nd note was (B) and he just called it 1st finger on the A string.

He appears to have no concept of the fact that each line/space has a letter name, and that the instrument that it's played on makes no difference at all.

I have to confess I had kind of assumed that he would be taught the basic music theory as he had his lessons at school, so haven't really paid too much attention to that aspect of it until now - when I realise he seems to have no clue at all.

How long has he been learning for?

just over a year - but tbh until September last year it was in a group of 15...........

Since September been learning with 1 other boy, but had so much RL stuff going on that I've only just managed to start paying full attention (sounds dreadful I know - but quite frankly with everything else going on in my life - my DS's violin was pretty low down in the priorities).

should add that it's only been since September last year (so about 5 months) that he's started learning with music rather than letters written on a sheet of paper.

Obviously I wouldn't expect him at this stage to be automatically be able to go "oh yes that's an F".........but at least to be able to know how to work it out.........

ok - now I am worried - I just asked him if he knew what a treble clef is...........and a bar line..........he knows that a bar line is a long line in the music but has NO clue what they are

is this normal for school music lessons that I'm paying for???????

I agree - I'm a bit surprised he hasn't done all that "FACE" and "Every Good Boy Deserves Food" stuff. I'm sure both dcs had to learn that pretty early on.

I'm going to have to teach him myself - I'm suprised he hasn't done it in his "general" music school lessons !

DD has been doing piano for the past ear. She is 7.5y. She knows that notes ont he scale have names, wht the letter/names are, how many counts differet notes have, etc.

She has learnt:
FACE (spaces on treble)
Every Good Boy Deserves Football (lines on treble)
All Cows Eat Grass (spaces on bass)
Green Bottles Dance For Animals (lines on bass)

She does know which finger she is supposed to use for each note,and which hand - but her piano teacher has taught her the note names from lesson 1.

I recently got DD a couple of theory books (have stickers and simple exercises, aimed at young children) to reiterate some of this, which she enjoys.

I only learnt music properly by having individual lessons. I think it's very hard to learn an instrument in a group of 15.

sorry, just seen he is now with one other boy, I'm not sure how well that would work tbh. He would learn at the pace of the slower child, whoever that is.

well indeed belgo - I didn't expect much in the group of 15.

One other pupil shouldn't be that hard to make sure they're taught the basics.........even if it doesn't stick for one of them. They both appear to be working at a similar speed violin playing wise. Back in the days that I used to teach the piano a little we never used to progress to more difficult stuff until I was sure they'd grasped the basics........and to me the basics when learning any instrument is knowing what the notes are you're playing and simple (pre-grade 1) music theory.

I also learnt in a group (there were 3 of us) when I first started keyboard lessons (outside of school).......but they made damn sure we knew what notes we were playing.

I'll be honest I had my doubts about paying out for music lessons at school from my own experience 20yrs ago........but had kind of hoped they improved a little and at least tried to teach the absolute basics, but it would appear sadly not.

dd(8) does theory as part of her piano lesson. It started pretty early with FACE etc and has become more formal since last summer (after almost a year of learning) in preparation for grade 1. If he is going to do any exams he has to have a basic understanding of how the stave works and be able to read simple notation.

Ds has music lessons in a group and they've been learning how to read music pretty much from the beginning.

I'd think it was odd if they hadn't been taught basic thory.

My DS3 had guitar lessons at school for a couple of years before we HE'd, so, he was about 10. He didn't do any theory, music reading or anything else. He learned that certain notes were things like 3rd fret,2nd string etc. but not the names or how to read music or anything else.

I wouldn't worry too much. I played woodwind for years and years at school and uni and I had been playing for about a year before the penny dropped with reading the music. We didn't do any of the FACE or every good boy... stuff until secondary school. Neither did my DS1 and he now has a grade 8 in sax(although he taught himself to read music when he got a recorder when he was 5.) I didn't know that schools did that kind of music theory in Primary years, they certainly don't do it here.

stresed - I am worried - I'm a musician, and I do think it's a vital part of learning an instrument.

I know of a few adults who play music briliantly, but all by ear, and admit their one regret is that they struggle to read the music having never learnt/been taught when they first started music lessons.

I also went to school with a lot of people who when they arrived at the school (getting in meant they were talented musicians) often had to start from basics/undo years of bad music lessons.......

I am PAYING for these lessons, fair enough if they don't learn it in their full class music lessons, but it's the very least I would expect from paying for him to be taught to play the violin.

It's all very well being able to play without reading the music - unless you discover you're half decent at it and want to play in a group/orchestra etc, makes life 100x harder than it needs to be.

I strongly believe that if it's taught in conjunction with the early lessons then it's not that hard to incorporate into music lessons.

Actually I've just had a look at his violin book - it does show the relationship between "B" on the music stave, and 2nd finger on the A string (for example) - but it would appear his teacher has totally bipassed those pages......

actually my BF's DD learns guitar at school, and also has a lesson once a week with a friend of mine. She also plays in the church music group - and admits that she wouldn't have been able to play in the music group at church if she wasn't having the extra lessons out of school

WTF am I paying money for inferior lessons (I'm 100 certain that his hold is AWFUL, but not being a violinist don't feel confident enough to try and "correct" is as I don't want to teach him another bad hold.........)

dd1 is learning guiar at school in a large group and she is learning names of notes etc
She also has 1:1 clarinet and learns all the theory as well. I'm quite impressed at what they expect her to know considering she only started in September!

It's not well, him, is it? Rather than the teaching? I mean this nicely

The drama of ds1 and the clarinet. I can't even bear to remember it. Anyway after two years of seemingly no progress, I rang the clarinet teacher and she said, 'I HAVE told him etc etc.' In the end we kind of agreed, that maybe, you know, ds1 and the clarinet were never meant to be. . .

like nymphadora, my dd2 (7) has been learning guitar in a group of 6 since September, and they are learning all the notes and reading from proper music sheets. She also insists on using a footrest in real classical guitar style!

You know, DS2 (8), who was an early reader (so has no problem with written notation per se) and seems generally quite musical, has progressed to Grade 1 on the piano with a very sketchy knowledge of reading music; the sight-reading was a real trial for him, though he still managed a merit. He has a sweet very elderly piano teacher who has taught him the stave and the mnemonics repeatedly, but because up till now it has been easy for him to just memorise the music and spot his errors by ear, he hasn't internalised it.

I'm quite frustrated by it actually as he just seems to turn on the tears now whenever I try to get him to read music...So I really feel your pain and wish that I had made sure he was remembering it all as he went along. I've bought some early theory books too to encourage him.

School music lessons are a bit hit and miss, as you never get to see the teacher, and some are not very communicative.

I don't think it is him, we have done (admittedly very stressed on my behalf) 10 minute session on notes - and he's started to pick it up quite quickly.

I had heard reports previously about the standard of the teaching (from people that also play in the church music group who also started out learning at the same school, same teachers and had to be taught the basic from "outsiders" etc) but, ever the optimist, I decided it couldn't be that bad.....

He does actually show some promise........unlike the piano that we tried a few years ago - he's reasonably musical - but unlike his mother he's not a keyboard player

He HAS made progress playing wise since they started the lessons with just the 2 of them in September (I had totally given up hope of any progress in the group of 15 the previous school year), but I do kind of feel that the teaching is hodling him back.

I have my own personal memories of AWFUL school music lesson (and they were 1:1 - but at least free ) and despite being able to play the notes (and got to grade 5 in one instrument, grade 1 in another and grade 6 in another) not really being able to play the instruments. I was lucky that I was getting the music theory side of things from my main instrument (organ) outside of school - heaven knows what I'd have been like if I hadn't been taught that as well.

some music teachers are better then others, I know that from experience!

I'd look around for another teacher if I were you.

My DS did one term of Violin, at age 8.5(Suzuki method) and IIRC the teacher would tell him the names of the notes, before even showing him the written music. So he would be playing an "E" and knowing if it sounded right and then be shown the notes on the page. However, the poor man could not get DS to enjy the lessons, and I couldn't get him to practise so we gave up.
But it sounds as if OPs DS is reading the music in the sense of knowing what the notes are indicating him to do to with the instrument, (and may even know the correct pitch), but just not learning tha NAMES of the notes.

yes that's about it - except he doesn't know it's a "b" on the violin he knows it's "1st finger on the A string" and for him a "b" on the music simply means "1st finger on the A string" (if that makes sense).

One of mine was learning violin similarly at school and was not progressing at all, and knew far more than the other children in her lesson and told us they weren't really told properly about the music theory (which she knows already from piano lessons at home), and this after a year of lessons. So we stopped her school lessons and hired a private teacher and within a few months she had passed Grade 1 and was learning Grade 2 pieces because the teacher was actually teaching her.

If you can afford it, go for private lessons.