absolutely fed up with theatre casting wokery for the sake of it

[grumpyandiknowit]

I'm so fed up with every single theatre company and production house straining to make theatre that forces into everything DEI, LGBTQI, race and left wing politics.

Casting now disproportionately represents all minorities out of all comparison with the population. As an example, feels like every single play will have a least one transgender member of the cast and one who is using 'they' pronouns and one person with a visible disability. This feels like forced tick-box quotas to me even in the acting world.

I just saw that Jonathan Groff who I've seen on stage many times and I think is fantastic is going to be in the new RSC season so eagerly went to look and it turns out he is playing a female character Rosalind in an all male production of As You Like It. I really don't want to see that and I was so disappointed. I know that this was how productions were traditionally performed but that's not what this is about it is it? It's about being seen to be promoting DEI constantly without actually looking for the best actors for the role. I think the fact this is so noticeable speaks for itself. If you went to the theatre and all the actors were brilliant and there was no casting that jarred with the meaning of the play, you'd never notice.

I just want to go and see some normal classic theatre where constantly men aren't being played by women, women aren't being played by men and where the real themes aren't being over ridden by politics forced into the play by casting decisions taken not because of talent or ability but because someone wants to demonstrate how modern and woke their production is. All too often the impact on the story and the real themes of a classic drama isn't thought through.

Maybe I'm alone but I'm fed up with it.

I wouldn’t call an all male production DEI. The exact opposite actually.

And theatre has always been more right on, woke in new money. A safe home for gay men 30 years ago, they/them now.

I am brown and a regular theatre goer. At least twice a month. I see what you say. I suppose the issue is that there are not enough roles for brown or black people. And no one wants to put on plays about their stories, so they are shoehorned into Tudor plays.

Sometimes it's really jarring and I agree no reason for Jonathan Groff to play Rosalind. I also find it annoying when brown people are cast as royal courtiers or politicians when we know they didn't have that power.

However sometimes it works, like when I saw Indira Varma play Lady Macbeth and completely outshine Ralph Fiennes.
I am on the fence about this trend.

I don’t mind it, I’ve just finished watching Amadeus in which he was asian and it didn’t take anything away from the story. Maybe it’s different if you’re not white yourself, it must be quite nice to see representation where there used to be none.

I wouldn’t want to see a male Rosalind personally, but it’s what I’d expect if the USP is an all male production.

I would have thought an all male version of As You Like It is in a similar vein to the all female cast of King Lear, so while it would be interesting I would go into it knowing what was coming and expecting to get new insights into it.

Otherwise, shoe horning DEI actors and themes into productions just ends up being really jarring IMO as you are having to do mental gymnastics about the character/actor the whole time and you can't lose yourself in the storytelling.

So I am not white, and sometimes I want to see representation and sometimes I don't. Does that make sense?

I always notice that there’s a lot more black representation than in the past but this isn’t the case at all for Asian actors. On the RSC website or even just TV adverts or scrolling through on the M&S clothing website there’s barely any Asian individuals. Not that I’m saying there should be fewer black actors/models etc but rather that there appears to be a huge drive to be more inclusive to black community rather than other ethnic minorities -( and from a quick google it seems 9% of UK is Asian which is the largest ethnic minority). If we’re going to have a black hamlet where is the Pakistani lady Macbeth ? It just seems hypocritical to me that it’s all about diversity and inclusivity but only towards black community.

And You’re brave making this thread OP!

Never watch Kind Hearts And Coronets, OP. You'll self-combust.

I'm firmly of the opinion that parts should be given to the person best suited for the job, and that ethnicity or other factors should be irrelevant.

But to crowbar people into roles solely because the production company needs to up their diversity quota and because they feel the need to be seen to be woke... well it's really not on. And it is disrespectful to the acting profession as a whole.

I did see a woman playing Richard the III last year at the Globe. And enjoyed it.
But then I saw a woman playing Winston Churchill in Nye, and hated it.
I can't explain why.

Maybe one was a better actor than the other.

Not again.

I don't think having Jonathan Groff playing Rosalind in an all-male As You Like It is anything particularly new or 'straining to be inclusive'. How many years ago was it that the Globe under Mark Rylance did that all-male Twelfth Night? or was it an all-male season? From what I remember, it was exploring traditional practices from Shakespeare's day, but didn't use boys for women's parts because I doubt you could find young boys who could manage the roles...?

I'm with you OP! Why, I went to see Cinderella at Christmas and not only were the ugly sisters being played by men, I swear that Prince Charming was being played by a woman!??!!!! It's political correctness gone mad, I tell you!

Colour blind casting is a positive thing.

trans women appearing as people of their identified sex drives me demented - it’s impossible to know whether the fact it’s a man dressed as a woman is supposed to be relevant to the story or not.

i watched a murder mystery recently where a suspicious seeming female character was played by a man, but always appeared as “female”. The crime could only have been committed by a man.

Was I supposed to rule out the man in a dress because he was actually a TW and I was supposed to accept him as female, or was a disguise that was part of the play. Irritating and facile.

I wouldn’t call an all male production DEI. The exact opposite actually.

Sexuality is a DEI protected characteristic. You know what I'm getting at.

Sometimes it's really jarring and I agree no reason for Jonathan Groff to play Rosalind. However sometimes it works, like when I saw Indira Varma play Lady Macbeth and completely outshine Ralph Fiennes.

Indira Varma is a fantastic actress and not an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's more this jarring (which is a good way to describe it) casting for the sake of DEI charateristics even where it isn't warranted, not backed by talent and actively interferes with the themes of the play.

You're absolutely NOT alone, but those who feel the same have been silenced for fear of losing jobs and friends etc.

I've seen how this has been developing over the last decade, and it's killing off theatre at a time when the arts need all the help they can muster.

DS (straight, white male, but inclusive, supportive etc) went to drama school and has been working in the industry, but is thinking of changing career because he's just had enough. Too often the diversity for diversity's sake is becoming the story, completely overshadowing the original script/ story.
It's all become tedious and boring, and audiences are politely clapping, but voting with their feet and not renewing theatre subscriptions, and are being VERY discerning about which shows they choose to see.

Diversity was long overdue 15-20 years ago, and I was excited to see representation of different groups on stage, but now the pendulum has swung in the other direction and it is ONLY the so-called under-represented groups we see, and they are rarely the best actors. There needs to be some sort of rebalancing if theatre is to survive. Interestingly, the most successful shows are still mostly those that broadly reflect the make up of the UK population - not the experimental, diversity-led ones. Directors like Jamie Lloyd understand what audiences want - diversity, but within reason, not an overload for the sake of box-ticking.

Yes, I get you. Sometimes colour blind casting is jarring.
I have a better example.
I love Wolf Hall but of course all the characters stories are not easy to follow. So I was flummoxed when Jane Seymour was dying, and a black woman popped up by her side. It took me till the end of the episode to figure out she was her sister!
I understand representation but it was just too far.

I don't generally mind where it truly is irrelevant to the role, but a couple of times I've seen plays where people who are meant to be related or even older and younger versions of the same character as different races, which I do find grates a bit. I also saw something where, while not the whole plot of the show, one character being black and the racism associated with it was part of the show. They cast a black man in this role (fine), but they also cast a black woman as a popular, rich young woman who had the world at her feet (clearly not the case for a black woman for the time period).

They should do a show based on the " Black Tudors" book though. Or a show based on the Julian Barnes book " Arthur and George' . Legitimate PoC who were fascinating.

I agree, OP. I went to the ballet a few years ago for the festive showing of 'Cinderella' - except the main character was a boy: 'Cinders'. Apparently they had two young people for the role, male and female, and switched them interchangeably aka one night it would be Cinderella and another it was Cinders. Took me right out of the story.

Another time I went to the ballet to see Swan Lake. Turns out it was a 'modern re-telling' where it was a gay love story and the costumes were made to look like jeans and tshirt. I beg of you, why?! I don't book Swan Lake to see dancers leaping around in jean-like lycra. I want tutus and sequins!

I'm all for people having representation, and the theatre is a great place for it - but why can it not be in the form of original material? Why can we no longer enjoy the classics without someone putting a 'woke' slant on it - Emerald Fennells' Wuthering Heights, anyone?

There were some fantastic C4 series' a decade or so ago (Banana, Cucumber and Tofu) that were original and engaging and provided great representation for LGBT+ and BAME communities. It's ashame that the networks aren't investing more in this kind of original work rather than scoring the easy win by putting a black actor in a famously-white characters role (I'm thinking Disneys Arielle, Snape in Harry Potter etc)

DS has twice got through to a final round of London theatre auditions only to be told (later, off record) that the casting director wanted to offer him the role but had been told in the final stages that they had to choose a black actor instead.
It's hard.
Why waste young actors' time if you already know the colour of the skin you are going to hire?
The answer is because they have to be seen to be putting out an 'Open' casting call, even if they already know the boxes they are going to tick.

Colour blind casting is a positive thing.

I'm not saying it is a bad thing at all. I'm also not saying no woman should ever be given a chance to play male parts. I saw Glenda Jackson play King Lear and she was amazing. I didn't even really register she was a woman tbh as it wasn't played that way.

What I'm saying is that these days every single production seems to have forced tick box casting that jars.

An example of the sort of thing I'm talking about (film but same point) is casting an Asian actor as Edgar Linton in Wuthering Heights. This is very jarring and undermines an important theme of the book which is the golden children v the outcast dark boy Heathcliff and Cathy's view of them both. Instead cast a white Australian as Heathcliff (because he's good looking and flavour of the month) and then because there are no non-whites in the leads and you are panicking about fair criticism, cast an Asian actor. In fact, it would have made much more sense to cast Heathcliff as black, asian or mixed race actor and not cut across a theme of the book.

I know what you're getting at but you don't know what I am. Men taking every role is just men. Not D E or I.

Not seen WH movie yet, but Heathcliff was originally a lascar, that being the point of their forbidden love, correct?
They should have cast a mixed race person.

@FedUpandFiftyNine

You're absolutely NOT alone, but those who feel the same have been silenced for fear of losing jobs and friends etc.
I've seen how this has been developing over the last decade, and it's killing off theatre at a time when the arts need all the help they can muster.
DS (straight, white male, but inclusive, supportive etc) went to drama school and has been working in the industry, but is thinking of changing career because he's just had enough. Too often the diversity for diversity's sake is becoming the story, completely overshadowing the original script/ story.
It's all become tedious and boring, and audiences are politely clapping, but voting with their feet and not renewing theatre subscriptions, and are being VERY discerning about which shows they choose to see.

I think this is a better way of describing what I was getting at:

Too often the diversity for diversity's sake is becoming the story, completely overshadowing the original script/ story.

It is a huge problem that no one is grappling with because I think the core audiences are fed up with this. You can't make truly diverse theatre at all unless you have money. If the core audiences stop going then it will have a dwindling income stream.

I think I'm just a bit sad as when I saw Jonathan Groff's name I was so excited and interested and then when I saw what it was, was just utterly deflated and not interested in seeing it at all.

I agree with your example. It's really jarring. Colourblind casting is fine in fiction (as long as it fits in with acknowledged appearance) but not real people IMO. It just doesn't make sense.

Imagine if a contemporary film was made about Martin Luther king and a white actor played him.

I'd go further and say it really annoys me when no effort is made to make the actor/actress look like their fictional description. Eg blonde Julie Christie playing dark haired beauty Bathsheba Everdene and don't get me started on Margo Robbie as Catherine Earnshaw.