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Culture vultures

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Are there artists/authors/actors/musicians etc whose private life behaviour/interviews sours your enjoyment of what they produce?

127 replies

Earlybird · 08/04/2008 22:03

Know that title is awkwardly worded, but hopefully the meaning is clear....

I'll start and say (fairly or not):

Hugh Grant - public persona too miserable for him to be believable in comedic/romantic roles
Salman Rushdie - not interested after the hoopla around his fatwah
Pete Doherty - no desire to hear his music
George Michael - sordid escapades leave me cold
Marco Pierre White - no interest in his restaurants after tabloid dirty laundry

OP posts:
madamez · 10/04/2008 14:16

You need a degree of selfishness to write, or paint, or play an instrument because there are always going to be other demands on your time. Unfortunately, just being monumentally selfish or monumentally fucked up or mental doesn't actually guarantee that you will be successful in your art. Nor does it guarantee that your artistic endeavours won't be crap.

Mind you, once you become even moderately famous, any slightly dodgy thing you do will be seized on as evidence that you are Not Nice (kicking the cat, losing your temper with a traffic warden, having sex with a bowl of spaghetti hoops) when it's the sort of stuff that lots of people do and it gets forgotten about.

hellsbells76 · 10/04/2008 14:23

found it!

and i wasn't far off with that quote - perhaps two babies haven't completely pickled my memory:

"One ought to be able to hold in one's head
simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other."

IorekByrnison · 10/04/2008 14:26

Basil Brush. Was devastated.

Swedes · 10/04/2008 14:54

I don't think art should ever be used as an excuse for falling short as a human being. Would life be so very lacking if there were fewer Rodin dancing women drawings?

skyatnight · 10/04/2008 15:28

I think we have a kind of obsession with people who are simultaneously talented and are, or seem to be, tortured, self-destructive souls. The fact that they have this dark chaotic side to them seems to increase our excitement and interest and, in some cases, somehow convince us that they are even more talented than they really are. Pete Doherty is a prime example. They can have big egos, sure, and maybe charisma (Pete Doherty?!) and it can be this that gets our interest and sells their talent to us. How many talented people with genius are out there who do produce outstanding work but we don't know about them because they are otherwise boring and not good self-publicists?

I don't know whether fame and notoriety have become more important than they used to be, probably not, but in our modern media-driven society, everything is faster and more short-term. There has to always be something new to put in the press-release, a new story with which to sell the goods, keep the money coming in and the media interested. It doesn't have to be a good thing. No such thing as bad publicity.

You can try to draw a distinction between 'true' talented artists and celebrities but it is a woolly distinction at best. There can obviously be an overlap and isn't talent and 'art', like beauty, in the eye of the beholder? A lot of 'true' artists were infamous and/or celebrities in their own time. Or is it about high-brow versus 'low-brow'?

Maybe it is about how people choose to market themselves? If an artist markets themselves as an elitist, high-brow, ivory tower, abstraction, then we have no ?right? to judge what they do in their private lives but if a celebrity is on tv and is a role model and/or is misrepresenting themselves, we do? Presenters on Blue Peter for example.

We also love dead artists. Not just the ones who died of natural causes, whose work goes up in value after they have died, but ?artists? like Kurt Cobain, James Dean, Buddy Holly, Marilyn Monroe, etc., who either took their own lives or died in other dodgy circumstances. I am not saying they were not talented but we have a kind of morbid fascination in them, particularly some people.

There are also artists who are famous too but who don?t ?do? interviews, or only high-brow interviews analysing their work but not their private lives. This seems to be the way to go to achieve ?true? artist status, provided your work can speak for itself.

There is an element of having to devote oneself to one's 'oeuvre'. And this could mean that one is either bonkers or an egotist/selfish git. Unless you are lucky and get 'discovered' early, it would take a lot of determination or conviction or ego or madness, or a mixture, to continue indefinitely on a track that may lead to nowhere and/or involves loneliness, difficulty, rejection, poverty, etc., in the hope that it might one day pay off. Others in this thread have written about this more succinctly.

But the tortured artist is a cliche and there are also plenty of people who are contented, well-off and well-connected and always were before and after they also became successful authors or artists or whatever. It is just the most extreme examples of either talent and/or madness/egotism that we tend to hear most about, and who come to embody our concept of ?tortured artist? because it is their stories which make the best copy.

You could say that it is either illogical or childish to be put off the work of a great artist just because they themselves are insane or weird or a shit in real life. That their work should stand separate from who they are. I might agree with that. I might make a conscious decision that I can appreciate their work without feeling that my enjoyment of it is in any way tainted by what I know about them but, at the same time, I think that my appreciation would in some way be coloured by the other knowledge. Depending on what we know about them, some people might feel further drawn to an artist or might be put off. Human nature. Some people are more objective or subjective than others.

For those of us who are influenced, a big part of it depends on what sort of thing it is that we know about them and the other big part depends on what sort of person we are. Zippi says: 'maybe its people who torture themselves rather than others i have no problems admiring'. I can sympathise with that view (although I wouldn't say I admire them for torturing themselves) and I'm sure a lot of people feel the same. Some people might be particularly disgusted by some sort of sexual misdemeanour, others by political views.

Rambled a lot there. sorry.

I still think that news of Frank Bough?s sadomasochism fetish was a bit disturbing and unexpected (I?m so naïve and innocent! ) but no doubt Madamez would say ?bof? to that.

zippitippitoes · 10/04/2008 15:31

interesting i did actually like kurt cobain definitely in my bok talented before he died and ditto jim morrison and river phoenix he is brilliant in stand by me one of my favourite films

skyatnight · 10/04/2008 15:34

Yes Zippi. I agree with you. I wasn't saying that we venerate talentless artists/celebrities just because they died, just that it adds an extra dimension to how we feel about their talent.

skyatnight · 10/04/2008 15:35

Sorry, what I wrote there was rubbish. What I meant to say was that we don't venerate them just because they died but rather because they were extremely talented AND died.

skyatnight · 10/04/2008 15:37

I think I'd better shut up.

zippitippitoes · 10/04/2008 15:40

no dont shut up i think it is an interesting topic

i do tend however to be interested in some of their menatl health issues as much as there talent

tho i dont read newspapers and magazines or watch tv so dont tend to know much about them unless i like them so the listed current people are mostly not people i know about

and i have no idea what frank bough is supposed to have done but as he isnt any kind of artist i dont care

i do have some sympathy with britney spears tho i have no interest in her or her output

skyatnight · 10/04/2008 15:53

Yes, I was just being silly about Frank Bough - it was just the lovely juxtaposition of dull, grey, middle-aged suburbanite and S&M, although that combination in itself is a cliche.

I too am intrigued by all things mental health, because they affect us all. And I do think the case of Britney Spears and her car-crash life says a lot about modern society and fame.

These things are interesting and important but the personality stuff can detract from the 'art'. I would rather understand about how Kurt Cobain and Nirvana made their music and who their influences were and how they fitted into the music scene at the time than hear about what the circumstances of how, and why it might be that, he took his own life.

In the case of Britney Spears, her career was based so much around her personal life and persona, rather than her music as such, that, with it all having gone pear-shaped, she doesn't appear to know who she is.

ska · 10/04/2008 16:20

i reckon that to have the obsession to be supremely talented and see it through youprobably have to be very self centred and along teh way won't be a very 'pleasant' person to be with. There are so many tortured souls in art, literature, music and acting/comedy. Have you sen the BBC Four progs on tortured comedians (though not sure hwo hughie green got in). It was very interesting - their car crash lives made great tv.

I do feel slightly and irrationaly 'betrayed' by some of the individuals I have let into my home and my heart through their music/acting etc when I discover that they are simply as flawed as the rest of us (and more so in many cases). I think that now we have such access to individuals through tv etc we do come to feel taht we know them. So I actually felt let down by Chris Langham personally as I have enjoyed his work over the years (daft but true).

Unlike others on this thread I do feel it hard to read, for example, the poetry of Larkin or Eliot knowing what I do about their personal beliefs - whereas ,eg, Orwell compells me to explore more (well, when I was a lot younger!) for the very same reason.
Hmm maybe it is simply the reflection of ourselves that makes us feel uncomfortable? teher but for the grace of god..?

barnstaple · 10/04/2008 17:10

I do think that you have to separate the product from the person. Take Mozart for instance. As far as I can see, the man was an immature, selfish, spoilt brat. But his music wasn't. Just be thankful you don't actually know these people and have to interact with them.

madamez · 10/04/2008 21:48

Barnstaple, intersting. Does it, for instance, matter more if the badly-behaved artist is still alive than if he/she died a century or two back after a life of equal artistic genius and misbehaviour up to and including murder? The playwright Christopher Marlowe was a pretty murky character, and one classical painter (can't remember, it may have been Caravaggio) supposedly murdered an apprentice. Yet their works are still celebrated and acclaimed.

Vulgar · 10/04/2008 22:38

Never knew about William Mayne and child abuse. Ugh! I used to love his books.

Isn't there some sort of rumour about Lowry and child abuse too?

IorekByrnison · 10/04/2008 22:56

I think that, in general, people who are well-adjusted and emotionally mature are more likely to go for "proper" jobs with more stability and of more obvious use to society. Those who are less so, and who have a strong need for constant approbation tend to be drawn to professions involving a high degree of self-expression. The very personal nature of the judgements that they then inevitably suffer exacerbates their emotional instability.

I think that is one reason why bad behaviour often seems to go hand in hand with creative genius.

zippitippitoes · 10/04/2008 22:58

well shakespeare wasnt entirely blameless

ThingOne · 10/04/2008 23:13

I'm coming late to this but did anybody ever take Lembit Opik seriously?

barnstaple · 10/04/2008 23:21

madamez, this centres on the definition of genius. IMO Mozart was a musical genius and made an inestimable contribution to society, though there were plenty of his own time who would not have agreed with me. Some people think genius cannot be attributed immediately, but needs to be tested over time.

Did someone say John Lennon was genius? My dh certainly thinks so. He didn't always behave well but his genius-ometer went up after he died.

You mention Christopher Marlowe. I enjoy his work. Is he a genius? TBH I don't know.

On the other hand there are artists of all sorts whom I really admire, and perhaps think of (at least tentatively) as geniuses (genii?!) who didn't kick off.

Too late at night for deep thought and dd has a tummy ache. Will retire.

Mamazon · 10/04/2008 23:25

not read the whole thread but micheal Jackson will never sound the same again.

UnquietDad · 11/04/2008 11:08

The ultimate test, I imagine, is whether you can still enjoy the comedy of Chris Langham.

IorekByrnison · 11/04/2008 11:26

I think it is nuts to take an artist's personal life into account when assessing their work. It's either good or it isn't.

If you are talking about a living working artist whose work you want to boycott to send a message to them/not give them economic support I can see that there might be some sense in that (in the same way that one might boycott products in a supermarket). But I really don't see it's relevant otherwise at all.

zippitippitoes · 11/04/2008 11:30

i dont know who chris langham is

tho i have a vague idea what he did wrong as i am friends with a guy who has a friend who did his computer examination stuff

i think at that level of talent just being someone on tv it is pretty easy to say well i have lost interest in him

similar to m barrynore

i didnt have much interest in him to start with they are just p[eople who work in tv

not any great creative genius

UnquietDad · 11/04/2008 13:58

zippi - CL is actor from "The Thick of It" who was in court last year for downloading images of child sexual abuse.

motherinferior · 11/04/2008 19:14

Yes, I wonder that as well, UD. Can one keep those Kipper CDs, too?

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