3rd person POV and neutrality ...

[NotQuiteCockney]

I've been thinking about this a lot today - how much do you let your main character's views into the 3rd person POV?

I used to always think the 3rd person 'narrator' had to be invisible and neutral, but a recent bit by Oates has me thinking. For example, would you have a bit that went:

Bob sighed, and said 'Whatever you want. It's fine.' Carol could be such a bitch sometimes.

Where the second sentence is Bob's thoughts, not a truly neutral statement?

How much can the main character slant the 3rd person POV? Could you do a sneaky unreliable narrator this way?

as much as you want to I guess. There was an Agatha Christie novel where the narrator was the murderer, wasn't there, so sneaky and unreliable is certainly possible though I should imagine it's a hard one to pull off. You could even have a narrative coloured by several major characters, again technically challenging I'd imagine.

In the Agatha Christie, was it written from the first person? I'm used to sneaky unreliable first person narration, just fiddling with it in the 3rd person ...

you're right, it was. Of course it was.
The Oates piece is clever, isn't it, quite subtly done. Interesting ...
Reckon it would be easier to sustain over a short shory, or are you going for something longer?

Is it right to say that Kazuo Ishiguru (sp?) does that a lot. Not a sneaky narration but a deluded one. Not written in first person, but a thrid person narrative slanted strongly by main character perspective and at the same time revealing main character perspective to be deluded?

Like the one about transplants?

Yes, I think. Also The Remains of the Day?

I was also thinking of the one about the Japanese artist, but come to think of it that was in the 1st person I think.

Remains of the Day is 1st person - we were given an excerpt as an example of the unreliable narrator thing. It's a good piece, though, because the voice seems neutral, at least initially.

(A quick google seems to show that The Remains of the Day is also 1st person - I remember it that way, too. It's subtly unreliable, too.)

Oates is always clever, generally fiendishly so. I guess it's unrealistic to say 'well, Oates does it, so why can't I'.

Only a short story - well, really, it's a POV exercise for a class next week. I seem to max out around 800 words at the moment. (Ok I have one 3000 word piece, but it needs serious gutting and reworking.)

It's amazing how many you think remember as 3rd are actually first! The Unconsoled, is that in third? about the conductor who isn't sure where he is/what he is meant to be doing.
I'm reading Grapes of Wrath atm, deffo written in third, interleaved with chapters which move away from the family in the story to a wider description of what's happening in US written with a definite political sympathy. One way of doing it I suppose - story, then drop back to 'sneaky unreliable' account, rather than having it run all the way through

Who wrote The Unconsoled?

Steinbeck was unsubtle in his political sympathies. But then, I'm not sure any POV can be truly neutral, anyway.

I think these 1st person POV books that come across as 3rd person are more subtly unreliable, and use a more neutral-sounding voice, than, say, Catcher in the Rye.

Hmm, lots to think about here, thanks ...

Ishiguru I think.

I love it. The only piece of literature I've read that really seems to capture the quality of a dream.

I should read more by him. I liked Never Let Me Go (the transplant one), but haven't actually read any others.

I should read more by him. I liked Never Let Me Go (the transplant one), but haven't actually read any others.

I find it really difficult when authors (in different books) switch from the third to first person. I like Louise Bagshaw (for a escapist non heavy read) but cannot get into her first person books as much as third person. Which is odd, as some of my fave authors write in the first person and I love the styles.

Weird - I haven't really classified my favourite authors by which POV they use. I know I'm not a huge fan of authors changing POV in a book (e.g. first person Bob, next chapter first person Sue) - it can work, absolutely (e.g. The Accidental) but takes quite a lot of skill.

I may go rifle through my bookshelves and start checking now.

I liked this thread a lot - thanks
Good luck with story, intriguing - keep us posted

Oh, it's just a tiny piece for class. I have other things going on that are more interesting, but I think there's room for something worthwhile here. I'll have to try discussing this stuff at my writing class tomrorow.

I hope I'm not butting in here. Could you be looking at an Intrusive Narrator, the one who tells you what to think? They can be quite useful because they know (or think they know) everything about everybody.

Hmmm, but does an Intrusive Narrator speak in first person? Because I really am thinking of third person stuff here. (Much as I like intrusive narrators, ideally inaccurate/deluded/sneaky ones!)

No, I don't think so, or it would be an unreliable narrator. The fun of the intrusive narrator is that they can pass comment on things they know nothing about. They can have opinions, however strange.

You could have an Omnicient POV, where the author knows the ins-and-outs. The level of intrusion is up to the writer.

I'll shut up - I'm already out of my depth