Money

[newmyname]

I've just looked into one of my favourite books and it sold 15000 copies. At about 10 percent commission the author would have made about £6000. Does this seem right ? Is it really that unprofitable ? It's a good book

How did you look up the sales figures initially to come to the idea it was 15,000 sold?

I just googled it and it was the first search result

What’s the book?

The first fifteen lives of Harry August by Claire North

You’re right. Writers get screwed over.
but just to say if it was traditional published they could have got an advance of 5K or 10K or even closer to 50K. It varies widely.

Advances are definitely very important and I wouldn’t write for a large publisher without one.

Even before writers “earn out” their advance they’re making a profit for the publishers.

One of my favourite books.
I've contributed, I've bought at least 5 copies for friends 😊

I wish it could be made into a film.

I've started reading another book of hers, she's such a good writer

It’s 10 years old so sales figures will be hard to get, tbh. But… it sold in the U.K. and the USA, and probably elsewhere in the world too. It was a high profile book as it got a R2 Bookclub pic, was nominated for a ton of awards including the Arthur C Clarke award and won at least one of those, and she’s now writing a bestselling series on Greek myth which is selling well. She’s doing all right! - she’ll definitely have made more than £6,000 in total from that book, fear not.

People like you are who publishers and authors love.

And thanks OP because I’ll now happily contribute to her continuing royalties as it sounds up my alley and I hadn’t heard of this one, only her Greek myth retellings, and I’m sort of over myth reimaginings. Off to buy a copy - from a proper bookshop at cover price

I think you'll love it, it's a great story and brilliantly executed

One of the things in the writing world is that a lot of writers that live off their writing don't live off their advances and royalties. They live off the opportunities that being published affords them. I was recently talking to an author who was paid the same for a talk she gave as she was paid for the advance on her more recent book. Published writers, especially those who have listed for or won a prestigious prize can get university teaching roles and those can be very well paid. Part of your job is continuing to be published so there is time for writing built into the role and you have an on campus office. University residencies are also an option. They require very little teaching, almost no marking and they also come with a campus office. They usually only last a year or two but they make it all the more likely that you get a very well paid teaching job in the future. If you develop a relationship with the university, university comms will promote your book, as the better you do, the better they look.

It's easier for published writers to get arts council bursaries and residencies. Writers can get paid to do workshops in schools. They can be guest lecturers in other universities. They can do courses through their arts councils, writing centres and local colleges, local arts office. They can teach and lecture at summer schools and winter schools, which are specialist, selective week/fortnight long courses. And while you have to learn how to hustle for yourself a bit, you are organising all of this without your agent, so you aren't paying them a percentage.

It's not exactly the dream of getting six figure advances every couple of years along with selling film rights. But it is possible to make your writing your life if that's what you want. And while that really isn't the life for everyone, it's also worth considering that writing can be very lonely and isolating work. So maybe it isn't the worst thing in the world if in order for it to be a career you have to be out engaging with readers and emerging writers on an ongoing basis.

I wish it were that easy to get gigs like this! I write books, I win awards and I have to work in a supermarket. Unless you win LITERARY awards, nobody cares. So although I have a shelf full of awards in my house and shelves full of my books - I write romance/women's fiction and I'm never going to win the Booker. So - supermarket stacking shelves it is!

Yeah I’ve noticed that even the writers I’m friendly with who prima facie sustain themselves through delivering creative writing workshops, author events at libraries , teaching courses etc alongside their advance money , they nearly all have partners who have above average incomes.

I think this is the thing that isn’t talked about enough. If all writers were single or the only breadwinner in their couple I think there would be a lot less “full-time writers”.

I do a bit of teaching and events/workshops here and there, and I do get some income from that but that’s more to supplement my main income I get as a full time office worker. It would be different if I lived with my partner /was married

Absolutely agree. Nearly all the 'full time' writers I know have an earning partner who supports the household when royalties aren't quite what they could be. The only ones that don't are either retired and on a very good pension or being supported by other family members. Single, self-supporting full time writers are as rare as hens' teeth. I can only get by because I own my own home without a mortgage (because of inheritance). If I had rent to pay then I doubt very much I would be writing nearly as much as I currently can.

I was wondering how do you find out how many copies a book has sold?

Publishers and booksellers have access to a tool called Bookscan which compiles sales data. But the general public can’t really find out - you’re reliant on what’s reported to the press, and that’s usually just high profile authors breaking records.

Most books sell much fewer copies than you might think.

Whereas most of the writers I know support themselves while others earn multiples of enough to support a family. Mostly not from the books themselves but from the doors their books have opened. (I know a couple who do earn enough from their books). While some have listed for top tier literary awards, others haven't.

It involves a huge amount of hustle, maintained connections and ability and willingness to travel though. I have to say, I'm not someone who can naturally hustle for myself, and I don't especially love that kind of travel. I've had to do it for bursaries I've won and it's not only exhausting but it's incredibly incompatible with parenting. At times it's made me seriously consider if this is really what I want to do and yet for some damn reason, it is.

Yes a recent survey showed the median author income is 7,000 and it’s actually dropped from a previous year! When you take into account inflation as well that’s especially shocking. You are also more likely to make more if you are white and male (not that surprising I know!)

https://www2.societyofauthors.org/2022/12/06/a-profession-struggling-to-sustain-itself/#:~:text=In%202006%2C%20median%20author%20earnings,60.2%25%20when%20adjusted%20for%20inflation.

ETA: Some authors are really honest and open about this all but I’d really welcome more authors, being more transparent about inheritances and spousal support etc because right now the status quo suits publishers.

Pay writers a pittance and then have their rich family sustain them but look like this is what the publishing industry provides .

This makes publishing continue to be less viable for those from average or poorer income families /singles etc.

I know a woman who goes on a bit about being a “proper full time author”, but because I know her well I know she doesn’t mean harm. And I also know her advance was £1,000. No I’m not missing a zero. I really mean 1K!

She is only a “proper” writer as she calls it because her husband is a banker and her kids are older.

In 2006, median author earnings were £12,330. In 2022, the median has fallen to £7,000, a drop of 33.2% based on reported figures, or 60.2% when adjusted for inflation.
The report, which ALCS argues is evidence of a ‘global trend towards the de-valuing of creative labour’, found that

From the report I linked above. Things are definitely getting worse.

I think it's because if you are a full-time author, you are perceived as having 'made it'. So some authors of my acquaintance say that they are 'full time writers' with the obvious inference that they make enough out of their writing (are, therefore successful) to support a household. Most of them are not supporting the household through writing books alone. As @GhostImposter says above, they are doing other writing-related gigs, teaching, 'writer in residence', lecturing etc, all of which are variable earners and not exactly secure.

The rest are living on inheritances, supported by a partner or have other unearned income which floats them when royalties tank. I agree that more transparency would be a good thing, and would also make potential writers think twice before they give up the day job 'to write a novel'.

Yes, exactly! @Vroomfondleswaistcoat It’s all about sending wanting to send out this signal that you’ve “made it”.
But it’s so misleading because many successful, well known and award winning and bestselling authors or other creatives need an additional income.

I actually wouldn’t want to be a full time author unless I was retired OR was staying at home with under 5s, partly because the industry is so fickle and unpredictable and it would stress me out being dependent on my next book to pay bills and it would negatively affect my creativity.

But also I think I’m one of those who do more when I have less time if that makes sense? If I have a whole day to write a thousand words I may not do it, but if I had, for example, only 2 hours in the morning, to write I’ll do it 😂

But what is the situation in the publishing world itself? Outside of big commercial hits, how much money does a publisher make on a book that only sells a few thousand copies? In Ireland many of our indie publishers are fairly heavily supported by the arts council and I know that at least a number of them would struggle to operate without that funding. While the many of the writers themselves get funded by the arts council too, to the point that it's looking likely that our trial of a Universal Basic Income for artists, that sees artists receive €16,900 a year, may be continued and expanded to all recognised artists.

I don't think it's a massively profitable industry outside of massive commercial sellers and there are those who claim that those big sellers are part of what allows big five publishers to publish their lower sellers and more literary works. I think increasingly, state support for artists may be very much needed across the board because otherwise it's going to be all JK Rowling, Harlan Coben and celebrity memoirs.

*No shade on their writing meant just that it's going to be increasingly difficult for new writers to come anywhere close to their success.

@GhostImposter Many bestsellers are bestsellers largely because of huge publisher support in terms of marketing and publicity. And it’s often white middle-class, (often) male authors and /or celebrities who are getting large advances. See the hashtag #publishingpaidme.

There are many times when they throw tonnes of money at books, and they more or less flop in comparison to how much money was put behind them. People are now starting to question the wisdom of this and wonder if they put a scrap of effort into pushing a more wide and diverse range of writers on their list, if things would be more fair and also more profitable.

There was a recent highly published legal case where the US department took PRH to court to challenge their proposed merger with S&S. A lot of interesting things came out of that court trial including a spotlight thrown on the rather strange ways into how the Big 5 publishers and other large publishers operate.

There is concern that publishers can be quite reckless with their money to the detriment of mid-list authors. It’s a model that definitely needs to be looked at - the whole idea of gambling huge advances on celebs and certain “chosen ones” while barely paying most other authors a living wage.

I don’t know the ins out and out of the profit publishers are making - maybe any publishing professionals on the thread may know more?
And I can obviously imagine self publishing and Amazon etc will have had an impact.

But I do know in general there is a growing trend across a range of large companies for wanting higher and higher profit margins to the detriment of the ones at the bottom which in this case would be writers and editors etc.

I was wondering about libraries. I use the library for almost all my reading and wondered if that was shortchanging authors, but it seems not.

I also buy a lot of 99p kindle books, and pick up books 2nd hand. I guess one advantage of the 99p kindle books to the author is that they can't be passed on - if people read a book then sell it 2nd hand or give it away those subsequent readers won't bring in any £.

Also I can't be the only one with a lot of unread 99p books!

What about audio books, are they better/worse for royalties?