Have you studied CW - a degree or postgraduate?

[RainbowBabyDreams]

How was it?
I did a module based course but wanted to then go on to a higher course. When I was doing my original course about 5 years ago the mst at cambridge was something around 1500 a year. Expensive but an indulgence for what I hoped was a good experience. I thought I'd better save up some money and I've just looked and it's now seven thousand pounds per year over two years.

Surely it's not worth it?!

I applied for the UEA course and was rejected.

Having already done a module based course - and got a distinction so i thought I was doing ok - would there actually be any benefit that is better than just sending my manuscript off to agents?

I had hoped it would be a boost to get finished but I just read somebody's thread about mostly sitting through other people's work and I'm not sure it's worth it anymore. Not that I could ever afford it now anyway.
I'm a bit gutted as I fancied it as a mood brightening, hobby affirming, friend meeting, Cambridge seeing experience.

And a chance to meet some agents!

I suppose the benefits would include feedback, networking and endorsement/credentials when trying to get an agent and publisher.

If the costs for an academic MA aren't affordable, would any of Faber Academy or Curtis Brown Creative's courses be affordable? I've seen other writers say these also gave them an 'in' to the industry.

If the Cambridge MSt were unaffordable, was the UEA MA any cheaper? The last time I looked, they both seemed to be around the same costs.

Good luck.

@zilla1 Thanks for your message :-)

IIRC the UEA was a little cheaper - this was two years ago I was applying, and there were several bursaries / grants to try for.

I hadn't heard of those other ones you mentioned. I'll look them up, thank you :-)

doo-bee-doo...

Just had a look at Curtis Brown, and ooh yes a lot cheaper! They don't have any face to face courses available so I guess no chance of meeting any agents, but they look like lovely courses. Thank you so much!!!

xx

I did a creative writing MA and am published, though it took a few years after that to get published.

We had a couple of agents come to talk to us - they were really interesting, but now there are very similar talks on YouTube and tons of interviews with agents online. We had the chance to submit an outline to them and had five minutes to discuss it with them privately. For me, that led to the agent asking to see the full novel when it was written. However, I could have sent it to her anyway, regardless of having met her. She gave me encouragement when I did write to her, but she would've done that anyway.

There are some highly prestigious courses around where selection is very strict and agents are introduced to writers. The thing is that agents are looking for writers all the time! Meeting one like that doesn't put you at an advantage, really - if you send a great outline and first three chapters, then an agent will be interested, regardless of whether they've met you or not.

There's another thread on MN today where people are talking about taking an MA in order to make contacts. Unless you are famous (in which case you'll have an unfair advantage in every way, not just in writing) then it really doesn't matter which contacts you have. It's the book that matters, and the next book and the next.

Honestly, when an agent opens their emails they are dying to see a great book. Take the MA with the view that it'll help you write that book, not because you think you'll get in the back door because you met the right person.

Did you know that at most literary festivals there's a chance to pitch to agents? You'll have a group of agents and you stand up and tell them what your book's about. You don't get long - five minutes, maybe - and then they will talk to you briefly about it. Having said that I went to a Mumsnet Creative Writing day in London a few years ago which was run by a big agency and they asked every single person I spoke to to send in the first three chapters and a synopsis.

BUT.... they could've sent those in anyway! That's what they'll base their decision on, not the fact they like you or that you can talk the talk. It's what's on the page that matters.

Hollow Talk, that's fantastic, thank you so much for taking the time to share your tips and experiences. You've cheered me up about not being able to afford an MA :-)

How did you find the MA - did you feel your writing improved?

Any time!

I was expecting to learn how to write on the MA, but it wasn't about that at all. When I realised that I bought a load of text books and read them religiously.

What I really liked was the workshops. We were in groups of five or six and each week two people would have to give the group advance copies of a couple of chapters. They could be new chapters or they could be ones we'd edited, that the group had seen before. Actually I found I learned more from critiquing other people's work than anything else, though my tutor was a writer in the same genre as me and her advice was very good. But going through someone else's work, even if it's in a completely different genre - we had thrillers, fantasy, sci-fi, young adult and women's fiction in our group - was a massive learning curve. Some things were obvious, like noticing someone was using too many adjectives, and sometimes one of the writers would give a huge info dump in the middle of a thriller, which slowed the pace right down. But I also learned that a chapter had to contain something - there had to be a point to it - that it had to end in a way that made me want to read on - that sort of thing. It was really useful.

I suppose you could do that sort of thing without a course but obviously most things we read have been edited already. There's a website where people critique each other's work (sorry, can't remember the name but can find out from a friend if you like) - that would be really useful, in my opinion, both in terms of looking at what others say and in terms of what you think. It's the best thing you can do to improve your own writing.

Hi, I'm doing the Mst at Cambridge and I think it looks good on a cover letter to agents - I like to mention Sara Collins of "The Confessions of Frannie Langton" attended the same course.
I don't even feel like my writing has improved much (although course furloughed at moment so didn't get to study much.)

Yes, try Curtis Brown - the courses look amazing and v reasonable!

@RainbowBabyDreams

How was it? I did a module based course but wanted to then go on to a higher course. When I was doing my original course about 5 years ago the mst at cambridge was something around 1500 a year. Expensive but an indulgence for what I hoped was a good experience. I thought I'd better save up some money and I've just looked and it's now seven thousand pounds per year over two years.

Surely it's not worth it?!

I applied for the UEA course and was rejected.

Having already done a module based course - and got a distinction so i thought I was doing ok - would there actually be any benefit that is better than just sending my manuscript off to agents?

I had hoped it would be a boost to get finished but I just read somebody's thread about mostly sitting through other people's work and I'm not sure it's worth it anymore. Not that I could ever afford it now anyway.
I'm a bit gutted as I fancied it as a mood brightening, hobby affirming, friend meeting, Cambridge seeing experience.

Hi I have just been accepted onto the UEA MA in Poetry. Bit shocked to be accepted. I will get a student loan to pay for it hopefully. Is that a possibility for you? Best wishes Sarah

Rainbow, yes, look into a postgrad loan like the pp just said - it's what I'm currently using!

@HollowTalk

Any time!

I was expecting to learn how to write on the MA, but it wasn't about that at all. When I realised that I bought a load of text books and read them religiously.

What I really liked was the workshops. We were in groups of five or six and each week two people would have to give the group advance copies of a couple of chapters. They could be new chapters or they could be ones we'd edited, that the group had seen before. Actually I found I learned more from critiquing other people's work than anything else, though my tutor was a writer in the same genre as me and her advice was very good. But going through someone else's work, even if it's in a completely different genre - we had thrillers, fantasy, sci-fi, young adult and women's fiction in our group - was a massive learning curve. Some things were obvious, like noticing someone was using too many adjectives, and sometimes one of the writers would give a huge info dump in the middle of a thriller, which slowed the pace right down. But I also learned that a chapter had to contain something - there had to be a point to it - that it had to end in a way that made me want to read on - that sort of thing. It was really useful.

I suppose you could do that sort of thing without a course but obviously most things we read have been edited already. There's a website where people critique each other's work (sorry, can't remember the name but can find out from a friend if you like) - that would be really useful, in my opinion, both in terms of looking at what others say and in terms of what you think. It's the best thing you can do to improve your own writing.

Thank you hollow, it's really interesting to read your experiences. Yes, if it's not too much trouble I'd love to know the name of that website.

@blackrabbitwhiterabbit

Hi, I'm doing the Mst at Cambridge and I think it looks good on a cover letter to agents - I like to mention Sara Collins of "The Confessions of Frannie Langton" attended the same course. I don't even feel like my writing has improved much (although course furloughed at moment so didn't get to study much.)

Yes, try Curtis Brown - the courses look amazing and v reasonable!

Wow, you're very lucky, that's the one I wanted to do - toss up with UEA but was rejected from UEA of course. :-) How do you find it?

Though I wondered how the Cambridge one is worth the money as it's just a few weekends.

I'll take a look at a PG loan but I'm not sure it's a good idea to get 15K of debt :-/ I guess if getting published led to six figures sums, maybe but everything I read suggests it's a £7k a year profession.

Hi Sarah, well done! I think it's really competitive isn't it. I had v good references from Oxford and yet didn't get in - and the feedback was kind of vague - just kind of, try again another year. Now I don't want to bother my referees again - I'm such a chicken!

In some ways I told myself if I hit the big time and got published - successfully - I could do my MA/Mst then, because I could afford it (not just in terms of cash in hand, but in terms of percentage of income!!)

But what a nuts way round to look at it! lol. I'm just in that doldrums stage of - where the hell is my book going - and it's a bit long to keep rereading to get the feel over and over again. I put baby for a nap yesterday and started reading, and I'd written about one sentence when he woke up again :-D

hi RainbowBabyDreams
I'm not sure whether the Poetry MA is so competitive as the Creative Writing one. We do share some lectures.
I wouldn't have been able to afford it without the Student Loan. It's not based on household income and I am very unlikely to have to pay it off because I'm not likely to reach the threshold so win win! Bw Sarah

I've taught undergraduate creative writing modules and have novelist friends who teach on some of the major UK creative writing MA programmes. I think you need to think very hard about what you're actually wanting to get out of an MA or other course is it industry introductions? To be workshopped? Advice from a tutor in your genre, whose writing you know and like? Research carefully whether a particular course will give you what you really want how many individual sessions with your tutor? How often will your work be workshopped? Who is on the teaching staff? How does this programme foster connections with agents etc?

I know one friend who teaches on a hugely competitive, oversubscribed MA is often shocked by how disengaged some students are, given that they're paying a lot of money (in some cases astronomical overseas fees), and that it's not terribly rare for someone to not submit advance chapters when it's their turn to be workshopped.

Another thing to consider is how you would feel if the vast majority of the other students worked in a very dissimilar genre to you. In theory, absolutely, you will still learn a lot from critiquing any type of work, whether it's space opera or romantic fiction, but might you feel shortchanged if you write very literary historical fiction and everyone else on your MA is writing YA fantasy?

The single issue I've found most often with undergraduate creative writing teaching is that a significant number of the students who come in don't read much or at all, even though they want to be writers, and have chosen a creative writing degree. Even in the genre they say they want to write in.

A common question in the early 'getting to know you'/warm up sessions is 'What book brought you here?' 'or 'What book would you most like to have written?' and the answers are alarmingly often the standard A-level and GCSE English texts.

I had a group a while ago, and the only novel that several of them appeared to have read other than school set texts was Becky Chambers' Long Way to a Small Angry Planet, and some of them were quite resistant to the idea that they needed to read a lot of other people's work.

I did ace for part of my degree and then as a masters two years ago. I took out a government student loan. Was it worth it? I'm not sure. I can give you some pros and cons.

Pros-

you get to do lots of workshopping and get feed back on your work.

If you work better to a deadline then it's great as you have to write for assignments, workshopping and of course your final piece and poetics/professional development log.

Support from fellow writers.

Great for networking.

Cons-

You have to read published work critically. You don't always get to choose your genre. I struggle massively with poetry. But still had to do it.

A masters doesn't teach you the craft of writing, the actual bones of structure, plot, character development, mainly how to critically reflect and edit your work. The assumption is that you can already write or have a natural talent.

Some people struggle with constructively critiquing other people's work, especially face to face. It can be hard to tear their work to bits and at the end they may have one solid idea from hours of work.

It's a lot of money with no guarantee of selling anything. CW degree's are seen as a bit of a vanity degree if you haven't or agent being published. A lot of older people were on my course making the most of their retirement etc. Some were great writers, sine barely write anything.

If you think you want to write then just write. Short stories are perfect for honing your craft and anthologies are a great place to start for reading. Then write. Edit hard and rewrite. There are forums on line, or join a workshop locally to get feed back and offer feed back on others work. Submit to journals. Start a Twitter account just for networking. Add the cabinet of heed, Jelly fish review etc and submit to them. Read books on the craft. Check the bbc writers room every week for opportunities. Get writers magazine for competitions and opportunities. The list is endless and each publication will improve your confidence.

BUT

Don't get over confident. My first ever story was published by the first journal I submitted it to. I was elated. But my next was rejected 32 times and is still unpublished. I've had lots success since then but it's equally tainted by mass rejection.

If you want to write novels then just do it. Work out your plot and story line, character arcs etc. Then write and edit your first three chapters. Write a synopsis. Then find writers that are similar to your style and genre. Find out who their agents are, submit to the agents with an explanation of why they would want to read your work, 3 chapters and a synopsis. Then keep writing. It is why god then somebody will pick it up eventually.

But don't submit if you haven't got a full manuscript that's as good as you can make it. There's no point in an agent seeing three chapters when the rest of the book isn't written - the first thing they do if they like the opening chapters is to ask to see the rest. So many people have written three chapters - very few actually finish the book.

These are fantastic messages from all of you - I'm really really grateful and fascinated!
I thought perhaps I should tell you a bit more about my writing life. I've only just discovered this CW forum so hopefully I'll stick around.

I always wanted to write based on a childhood desire. There wasn't really one book that started it off but I did read a lot of a series and thought I could do a better job (babysitters club. Formulaic. In retrospect I regret the time I spent on them when I could have been reading other stuff!)

I read HP as an adolescent and enjoyed the way particularly book 5 sucked me in to read at every opportunity even on breaks at work. I would say for me, they are trumped by the faraway tree books however. As a grown up I recently enjoyed How to Stop Time but I kept wanting to change bits!

As a student I had an idea for a story and started writing it. That was years ago. I've written perhaps 160, 000 words overall but have chopped huge bits and now I feel like I'm on the home stretch. Every so often I frantically scour Google to see if there's anything else similar already published but I think the idea still stands as quite original.

I'm a bit unsure at times what the genre is. There's no sex or swearing and the protagonist are vaguely 17-19 but that's mostly because I was 19 when I started writing. It's not coming of age or love or anything.

I think it might be YA crossover.

So why has it taken so long? Well I've had a number of jobs with extremely long hours. Life got in the way but I kept going. The further I got, the longer it would take to get back in after a pause.

I did a higher education course a few years ago and enjoyed the deadlines and modules, but it wasn't related to my book. I did well and got a distinction which only a couple did.

I suppose I should have done a masters right after my first degree but maybe I wasn't ready.

A few years ago I entered a 2000 word short story into a competition and didn't win but did get put into the anthology of 20 stories. The same happened the next year.

Now I'm off work and time wise I could do an MA. However I have done lots of research about trying to get published. So much of what I've read says you earn no money as an author and that the chances of being picked for publication are slim to none. Moreover once published it's up to you to drum up interest.

Yet I really want to finish my story and get it out there. It isn't too far away from finishing I suppose but will need a massive edit! I'm paranoid about the structure and plot. I feel I need to finish before I can iron it all out.

So that's me :-)

@HollowTalk I know a few people that have secured publishing deals or agents on the first three chapters being good and the rest being delivered within a certain time frame.

Where about are you op?

A minor point OP but as you mentioned regret about not doing a masters degree straight after your first degree, I'm not sure it's beneficial to do a masters straight after a bachelor's degree for many subjects, including creative writing (and business). I think the benefits of growing, reflecting, working and life experience are worthwhile.

You've rightly given figures about average earnings for authors so you might want to write to tell your story and to earn a second income rather than see a Masters on an economic investment basis. Unless you're talented/lucky, you're unlikely to earn a significant return on a c£10k investments.

Good luck.

I've written 75% of where I want to be and then need a good edit. X

That's what I was thinking zilla. Doing it back then would purely have been because it was a lot cheaper!

The talent and luck question is the biggie isn't it. Who knows :-)

@IAmReportingYouForBBQing Were they debut authors? It's normal to get a new contract based on an outline, but I haven't met any new writers who got a book deal based on just three chapters. Were they huge sellers and did they get a lot of editorial help as they were going on?

RainbowBabyDreams I've spent a long time comparing courses, MAs, Curtis Brown, Faber. Also have considered writing mentors as an alternative.

I've just signed up for a course at The Novelry. I've only written three chapters so I chose their 'novel in 90 days' course. They also do a 'big edit' course which would help you edit your novel and restructure it. The course is complemented with mentor support and there are also forums. live surgeries and other classes alongside the course itself. I think the Big Edit costs around £400. Lots of people are sharing their work to get feedback on the forums. You can also purchase an added extra of feedback from your tutor / mentor.

I just signed up with them yesterday and I'm very impressed with what's on offer for the price. They also have good connections with agents and can put you forward, getting your work fast tracked.

As others have said, I don't think you need connections, you just need a good book, but personally I needed some support and accountability with writing mine (and editing it once I've finished). I feel like I need support through the doubts and wobbles!

Interestingly my mentor Katie Khan said she used The Novelry to write her second book. Even though she was already a published author she wobbled when having to write her second book under deadline, so used the course to get it done.