How much sex?

[BurningTheToast]

So, in between doing some edits on the book it looks as though my agent has sold (tentative huzzah, but no chickens being counted yet), I'm noodling around with some ideas for a new book. The one I'm tidying up is historical crime fic and the new one is also crime, but contemporary. And first person, which is new for me, but that's by the by.

Thing is, my protagonist Is involved with a bloke and although they really like each other, both of them are reluctant to even admit this is a relationship because they both have complicated histories. However, their involvement is quite physical.

So, my question for the panel is, in a crime novel (not erotic suspense or anything) how much boffing would put you off? I'm also paranoid because one editor felt there was too much romance (not actual shagging) in the book that's currently out there (I think she's wrong and a half page of feelings isn't going to horrify my readership) so I'm currently a little paranoid about putting anything in that might be construed as not related to the crime in hand.

Thanks.

NB, I'm not talking Fifty Shades filth, not even Jilly Cooper level tbh.

For me it would depend if it was essential to the story that they have sex. I hate romances so if a book strays too far into romance i lose interest. Imo it has to be relevant and essential to the story.

Well unless I am writing erotica, I always try to keep sex as totally relevant to the characters development. Otherwise it is just gratuitous sex for the sake of it.

You mention about how your book had romance , after a certain point your reader will have invested in your characters, they should care about what happens to them. If they are invested emotionally, your reader will expect a pay off of some sort. If they do not get it, they may well feel diddled. It doesn't have to be sex, it can simply be the agreement to take the relationship further.

A good example of crime novel that I feel does sex well is "Closer Than You Think" by Karen Rose. It is an easy read but the writer sets up the male detective as a survivor of childhood bullying and cheated on by his first wife. The female suspect/possible future victim has been attacked and had several attempts on her life - possibly as a result of being a therapist for sex offenders. The way the dynamic works between them is that they have instant attraction but are both damaged. So the investment between them is the investment that you ask of your reader, the sex that happens between them is the pay off. It is also integral to the story line as they both come out of it stronger for having trusted themselves and each other.

It not essential to the plot in terms of the crime, but it's important to understand the character and her back story. As it's the first in what I think will be a series, her character's arc will develop and the chap she's seeing here is really important to the plot of the next one in a non-romantic way.

fannyfelcher (hah - that username!)

Thanks. I think that's kind of where I'm going. My protagonist has a voiolent ex-partner and refuses to consider getting into a relationship because of that. But she's known this guy for a couple of years and there was an instant attraction and they've ended up with a fairly committed no-commitment involvement. They work together from time to time. And the plot of this book draws them closer together so that towards the end they realise how they feel about each other. He has plenty of his own issues, including PTSD, so also has a "journey". In next book, he might be a murderer... and it's really important to establish that relationship in this one.

It really does sound like you know where you are going with this. Good luck, if you ever need any proof reading or could use a sounding board then I am happy to help. I am currently completing my MA in creative writing and hoping to do my PhD next.

Thanks Fanny. How have you found the MA? I thought about it but I've been a bookseller for the thick end of a decade so just cracked on. It's taken a while but I now have an agent and a verbal offer from a publisher. The thing I did that was most valuable was taking part in a couple of pitching events, not just Twitter things but actual stand-and-talk-about-your-book events with a panel of agents and publishers. It didn't lead to anything directly but did give me confidence and opened doors.
X

I did my BA in English and CW so had a good foundation before starting the MA. It has been great for reinvigorating my ideas and kick starting me into trying new genres but to be perfectly honest, if I could go back I would do something else. I have paid £5.5k for 90 hours of work shopping and 90 hours of seminars/lectures. I can't help but feel that I could have got better value for money by doing some non academic writing courses or retreats. I haven't really learnt anything new, apart from things from the the books on the reading list. The best most worth while thing I have learned is to join twitter and use it to your advantage as it is the best networking tool out there. I have found lots of new places to submit too.

Although it has encouraged me to submit more work, but that could have just been the confidence boost I got from attending the Manchester Graduate fair.

For me there has to be a good reason for the sex to be "on stage" rather than "off stage" IYSWIM. In crime fiction I wouldn't really be expecting sex. You could show me that they had gone to bed together, say, but I'm not sure I'd want details.

I agree with George that you can make it clear they are having sex and have the appropriate level of intimacy in their conversations and touch and not actually need a sex scene.

I think it depends whether you've separately plotted a romance arc as a subplot to the investigation plot. If so, then sex might be a turning point of some sort (should be, probably), and therefore needs to be included. As to how much, maybe have a look at comparitor books in your genre and see how they've handled it.

One way to handle it would be to have conversation continue throughout the foreplay stage, revealing characters, fears etc through dialogue or internal monologue. Then you can fade to black. That keeps the scene relevant.

If the relationship isn't really as important as a subplot, and the sex has no plot or character relevance then I'd probably end a scene on them going home together and open the next with them waking/leaving.

I wouldn't want too much detail in that genre. I'm not a prude at all but find sex scenes in books so cringey and often skip them. The words some people use to describe things, can make me suddenly dislike the author and the book as a result.

The worst was two authors kept referring to the main female characters genitals as "her sex" and the other "her mound". I think it's really hard to write a good detailed sex scene.

You are not writing a romance - you have to bear in mind it's a crime novel. So, if there's sex, I think you should show something happens as a result - and that something should be crime-related. For example if they have sex and someone keeps calling his/her phone, that would work, particularly if he lies about who it is and she realises that, so the rest of the sex isn't working for her. If she realises halfway through that she is locked in the house, doesn't know where the key is and he doesn't seem to be the man he was, that would be fine. But if they have sex and a great night and go to sleep happy, that wouldn't be right for a crime novel, unless something happened immediately the next morning. If you were to write this latter scene, I would expect the implication of sex, rather than a description.

If there's no reason, take it out!

Oh and always listen to your editor. She will be MUCH more experienced than you in what is needed in a novel! If you know of a novel that does it like you suggest, then tell her - she may well tell you that it's actually a different genre, or give you another reason.

Oh don't worry everyone; there's not a lot of detail and the relationship between the two characters is significant. Especially with what it has to set up for book two. I'm hoping that because it's a different sub genre within crime fiction and will go to a different publisher a different editor will see if in a different way. Also, my agent will have thoughts when he reads it. It's good to know how readers see that sort of thing though so thanks x

Maybe think of the implications of the scene - each one should have a purpose.

I read and write crime fiction and can't remember any that have had sex scenes. Have you something to compare it to?

The relationship may be significant but is a detailed sex scene significant? Or can you just imply it?

Not much actual sex, more romantic suspense. I don't want to read about people shagging, that's a special genre all on its own.

Isn't there a book award for the worst sex scenes/descriptions?

Thanks everyone. I think I should have captioned this thread 'how much romance' as everyone seems to be thinking I'm planning on chucking in some serious smut! Don't worry; there will be nothing to scare the horses!

I was just musing out loud while I'm fiddling around with post its and plotting. I'll be sending the first few chapters to my agent soon so that he knows what I'm up to and I'll see what he thinks.

Romance is fine, i would still say as long as its relevant and not overpowering.

fanny was that the one at MMU last November?